Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
God simply manifested himself as a human and came down here on this earth and died for us.[ONENESS]

Were the heavens then left unattended?

Granny,

Statments like this also let me know what you view Persons as.

When we get to heaven You actually believe that we are going to walk up to the Father, slap him high five, walk over to the Son and give him a big oh hug for dieing for us and then granting the holy Ghost with an holy kiss for staying with us during all those bad times.

which it all sums up to granny there are going to be three seperate people up there for you to go chit chat with.

Godbless

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
I thought you were through with this discussion? just teasing

My response was to MEE, not to you.

~Lorelei

 

[GrannyGumbo]

No, son, ya got the granny figured all wrong!

You see, around these parts, the true "Onenesses"(my neighbors & 3/4 of the parish), believe in ONE only...as in "there's nothing else nowhere at anytime"...unless they've been misleading me.

I too, believe in ONE TRUE GOD, who is the FATHER and the SON and the HOLY GHOST. When I meet Jesus face to face in Heaven, I will know HIM, not THEM; and I will have acknowledged WHO He was/is while I lived here on this earth.

The words Omniscient & Omnipresent aren't in the Bible either, but yet, you admit to their existence. In essence, you're saying the same thing I am, but you won't admit to it...because then, what would be your argument?

The Holy Ghost does not testify of Himself, glorify Himself, or speak of Himself...yet, that's all I ever hear from tongue-talkers.

I was born of the Holy Spirit, spiritually, and the Lord Jesus Christ was born physically via the Holy Ghost[being the devine agent of the Virgin Birth, Who prepared Mary to receive the power of the Highest].

Jesus is the Son of God, not the Son of the Holy Ghost. It was God the Father, not the Holy Ghost that said "This is my beloved Son". Yes, all this is true & no, we can't explain it; so please don't try to make it out to be something it's not & please don't ridicule me as to how I will respond when I see Jesus.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
I thought you were through with this discussion? just teasing

My response was to MEE, not to you.

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Lorelei, even though you were talking to me, I think Brian gave a good explanation. I really don't have anything to add...except...if you all think in terms of *three persons* have you ever questioned the fact that maybe your God could have came and died instead of sending his Son?

Now keep in mind we are talking of the *three persons* that you all say that are in the scriptures. It just doesn't make any sense!

MEE

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
No, son, ya got the granny figured all wrong!

You see, around these parts, the true "Onenesses"(my neighbors & 3/4 of the parish), believe in ONE only...as in "there's nothing else nowhere at anytime"...unless they've been misleading me.

I too, believe in ONE TRUE GOD, who is the FATHER and the SON and the HOLY GHOST. When I meet Jesus face to face in Heaven, I will know HIM, not THEM; and I will have acknowledged WHO He was/is while I lived here on this earth.

The words Omniscient & Omnipresent aren't in the Bible either, but yet, you admit to their existence. In essence, you're saying the same thing I am, but you won't admit to it...because then, what would be your argument?

The Holy Ghost does not testify of Himself, glorify Himself, or speak of Himself...yet, that's all I ever hear from tongue-talkers.

I was born of the Holy Spirit, spiritually, and the Lord Jesus Christ was born physically via the Holy Ghost[being the devine agent of the Virgin Birth, Who prepared Mary to receive the power of the Highest].

Jesus is the Son of God, not the Son of the Holy Ghost. It was God the Father, not the Holy Ghost that said "This is my beloved Son". Yes, all this is true & no, we can't explain it; so please don't try to make it out to be something it's not & please don't ridicule me as to how I will respond when I see Jesus.

You see, around these parts, the true "Onenesses"(my neighbors & 3/4 of the parish), believe in ONE only...as in "there's nothing else nowhere at anytime"...unless they've been misleading me.

Granny I think you have them confused with what you want to think they are saying. I have spoken with people from this church and they do infact believe that God can be every where at one time.

They do not believe that when God came to Earth that he left heaven unhabited from a God. God was both able to be in heaven and at the same time be in The son.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that the Father can be in your church on sunday morning at 11:30am and be in another baptist church at 11:30am and yet be in antother baptist church at 11:30am on the exact same date?

I too, believe in ONE TRUE GOD, who is the FATHER and the SON and the HOLY GHOST. When I meet Jesus face to face in Heaven, I will know HIM, not THEM; and I will have acknowledged WHO He was/is while I lived here on this earth.

This is where you confuse me. How can you say that "when you mmet Jesus you are going to know just him, not them"? And now you are saying that you believe in three persons? Three persons is a "Them"

Would you be comfortable with saying that the Son is a Manifestation of God?

Why or why not?

The words Omniscient & Omnipresent aren't in the Bible either, but yet, you admit to their existence. In essence, you're saying the same thing I am, but you won't admit to it...because then, what would be your argument?

You are exactly right, I never said that they were. But this is a term that we both agree upon. You do believe that God is everywhere at one time dont you? You do beleive that god can be everywhere at one time without haveing to be devided dont you? That is what omnipresent means.

Just b/c Trintiy or three persons is not in the bible is not why I have a problem with it. I have a problem with b/c those concepts are not found it the bible either.

I was born of the Holy Spirit, spiritually, and the Lord Jesus Christ was born physically via the Holy Ghost[being the devine agent of the Virgin Birth, Who prepared Mary to receive the power of the Highest].

You never answered my question. Do you not beleive that the Holy Ghost is the Highest?

Jesus is the Son of God, not the Son of the Holy Ghost. It was God the Father, not the Holy Ghost that said "This is my beloved Son". Yes, all this is true & no, we can't explain it; so please don't try to make it out to be something it's not & please don't ridicule me as to how I will respond when I see Jesus.[/

Well if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and you believe that the Holy Ghost is God than you believe that The Holy Ghost is the Father of the Son.

Grandma, Im not ridiculeing you, Im just statine how you make it out to be.

Godbless Maw Maw.

BTW. Maw Maw is what I call mine. LOL. We are definatly country.

 

[Rev. G]

Show me one verse that says there is a "Holy Trinity" I can show you verse after verse that says there is only ONE GOD. What is your defintion of persons as MEE asked? If you mean manifestations than we can agree but no where in the bible does it refer to God as Seperate Persons. The term Persons used to express the nature of God cannot be found in the bible. Would you mind answering a few questions?

If so just tell MEE and myself who is the Father.
Is it the Father, or the Holy Ghost?

This will be my last post on this thread because I think it is pointless to continue in debate. Nonetheless, I will try to answer your questions.

As we all know, the word "Trinity" itself is not found in the Scriptures. That does not mean that the teaching is not found in Scripture, however. We see it immediately in the Bible, in Genesis.

Gen. 1:26-27 - Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness.... So God created man in His Own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

There is only one God, not three Gods. From your earlier statement it seems that you perceive believing in the Trinity to believe in three gods. Not so. There is only one true and living God. Look again at Gen. 1:26-27: "Us," "Our," "His," "He." Plurality of Persons, unity of being.

I do not mean "manifestations." That is the heresy known as "Modalism."

I don't understand your question, "Who is the Father? Is it the Father or the Holy Ghost?" The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

I will post on the Holy Trinity elsewhere, but my purpose for posting will not be to debate. However, I would be glad to answer any honest questions that anyone might have.

Rev. G

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
Lorelei, even though you were talking to me, I think Brian gave a good explanation.

I don't see how his explanation was good at all, he tells you what he believes but never explains why the Bible doesn't say it.

John 3:16 is clear. God gave his only begotten Son. No word of Himself only manifest in the flesh or any other such nonsense.

Originally posted by MEE:
I really don't have anything to add...except...if you all think in terms of *three persons* have you ever questioned the fact that maybe your God could have came and died instead of sending his Son?

This is another place where you misunderstand our belief. God did come, for Christ IS God. The distinction is this, the Father did not come, the Son came. The Father sent the Son, and this falls back into the fact that each one plays a different role in our salvation process, but my God did die for me.

Originally posted by MEE:
Now keep in mind we are talking of the *three persons* that you all say that are in the scriptures. It just doesn't make any sense!

MEE

To me what doesn't make sense is ignoring the Words of the Bible and saying that it says something that it doesn't say.



Do you think that God manifests himself in 3 different places and carries on conversations with himself and puts on a show for us? That is what much of the Bible would be reduced to if I believed your explanations. Jesus having a love fest with himself in prayer, the words of the Father about his beloved Son at his baptism, etc etc. Was it all just a big performance?

The question is, does the Bible speak the Truth? You can't explain a verse by telling me it means something other than it says.

If you all want to just "change" what the Bible says, feel free, but you won't find the REAL God that way.

~Lorelei

It's been a long day, I can't read

[ October 03, 2002, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Lorelei]

A few verses from 1 John

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Show me one verse that says there is a "Holy Trinity" I can show you verse after verse that says there is only ONE GOD. What is your defintion of persons as MEE asked? If you mean manifestations than we can agree but no where in the bible does it refer to God as Seperate Persons. The term Persons used to express the nature of God cannot be found in the bible. Would you mind answering a few questions?

If so just tell MEE and myself who is the Father.
Is it the Father, or the Holy Ghost?

This will be my last post on this thread because I think it is pointless to continue in debate. Nonetheless, I will try to answer your questions.

As we all know, the word "Trinity" itself is not found in the Scriptures. That does not mean that the teaching is not found in Scripture, however. We see it immediately in the Bible, in Genesis.

Gen. 1:26-27 - Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness.... So God created man in His Own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

There is only one God, not three Gods. From your earlier statement it seems that you perceive believing in the Trinity to believe in three gods. Not so. There is only one true and living God. Look again at Gen. 1:26-27: "Us," "Our," "His," "He." Plurality of Persons, unity of being.

I do not mean "manifestations." That is the heresy known as "Modalism."

I don't understand your question, "Who is the Father? Is it the Father or the Holy Ghost?" The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

I will post on the Holy Trinity elsewhere, but my purpose for posting will not be to debate. However, I would be glad to answer any honest questions that anyone might have.

Rev. G</font>[/QUOTE]

As we all know, the word "Trinity" itself is not found in the Scriptures. That does not mean that the teaching is not found in Scripture, however. We see it immediately in the Bible, in Genesis.

Maybe you are not fimilar with recent posts. Let me ask you this Who is talking in Gen 1:26? Is it the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost? Who is doing the listening in Gen 1:26? Is is the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost?

Same thing with Gen 1:27. Who is doing the talking? The Father, Son, or Holy Ghost.

There is only one God, not three Gods. From your earlier statement it seems that you perceive believing in the Trinity to believe in three gods. Not so. There is only one true and living God. Look again at Gen. 1:26-27: "Us," "Our," "His," "He." Plurality of Persons, unity of being.

Your right, I do b/c that is what is planted in the minds of those who are taught trinitarianism. When you separate God you divide him. He is no longer a one, but he is now a two and a three. It goes along with the question “When we enter heaven who are we going to see? Are we going to give The Father a high five, walk up to the Son and give him a hug for dying for and then grant the Holy Ghost with an Holy Kiss b/c he stayed with us all those years when we misbehaved”?

If we see the Son, is he going to take us by the hand and lead us to the Father or Is he going to tell us just like he told Phillip, “Your looking at him”?

I do not mean "manifestations." That is the heresy known as "Modalism

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…

Was it heresy when Paul wrote it?

I don't understand your question, "Who is the Father? Is it the Father or the Holy Ghost?" The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

I meant to ask which person in the trinity is the father of the son? Is it the father or holy ghost?

God bless

 

[ONENESS]

I don't see how his explanation was good at all, he tells you what he believes but never explains why the Bible doesn't say it.

John 3:16 is clear. God gave his only begotten Son. No word of Himself only manifest in the flesh or any other such nonsense.

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…

Lorelie, do you believe that Jesus is the Jehovah of the old Testament? The only true God?

This is another place where you misunderstand our belief. God did come, for Christ IS God. The distinction is this, the Father did not come, the Son came. The Father sent the Son, and this falls back into the fact that each one plays a different role in our salvation process, but my God did die for me.

And your belief falls under the fact that God himself did not come. Rather he only sent part of himself.

The Father did come. He came in the form of a man called the Son.

Do you think that God manifests himself in 3 different places and carries on conversations with himself and puts on a show for us? That is what much of the Bible would be reduced to if I believed your explanations. Jesus having a love fest with himself in prayer, the words of the Father about his beloved Son at his baptism, etc etc. Was it all just a big performance?

Lorelie, I think your problem is believing that God was also flesh. And if you do believe that you need to understand which nature (man/God)is doing certain things. Was it the eternal Spirit praying, was it the eternal spirit crying, was it the eternal spirit growing?

The question is, does the Bible speak the Truth? You can't explain a verse by telling me it means something other than it says.

If you all want to just "change" what the Bible says, feel free, but you won't find the REAL God that way

Then you cant tell us that Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19 means the people were baptized with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That would be telling us it means something other than it says.

Now, if you all want to change what the bible says, feel free, but you won't find the REAL God that way.

God bless

You know I love you right?

BTW are you ever giong to tell me what your name means?

[edited to remove redundant quoting. Please see this thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=001118 ]

[ October 03, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

And your problem is you don't know the truth from a lie, which is why you keep posting on your bosses dime, even though he has asked you to stop doing so. I won't play a part in encouraging you to lie to and deceive your boss.

~Lorelei

PS. I would have told you what my name meant if you had ever spelled it correctly.

[ October 03, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Oneness,

And your problem is you don't know the truth from a lie, which is why you keep posting on your bosses dime, even though he has asked you to stop doing so. I won't play a part in encouraging you to lie to and deceive your boss.

~Lorelei

PS. I would have told you what my name meant if you had ever spelled it correctly.

I get breaks

and Lunches

Are you getting upset b/c I you got caught changeing the word of god to what you want it to say?

Lorelei, what does your name mean. We can quit be childish when ever you would like

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Lorelei:

Originally posted by MEE:
[qb]Lorelei, even though you were talking to me, I think Brian gave a good explanation.

I don't see how his explanation was good at all, he tells you what he believes but never explains why the Bible doesn't say it.

John 3:16 is clear. God gave his only begotten Son. No word of Himself only manifest in the flesh or any other such nonsense.

~Lorelei

I agree, John 3:16 is very clear. It's just that you don't see it for what it is saying.

Yes, God gave His "only begotten" son. Meaning that the word *SON* is referring to the flesh that God came to Earth in....to die for our sins.

A Spirit has 'no' blood. So, the God of heaven came to Earth, in the form of man, in order to shed "HIS BLOOD" for the sins of the world. He didn't send "his little son" (second person of the Trinity) to die. He did it himself. See?

MEE

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
I agree, John 3:16 is very clear. It's just that you don't see it for what it is saying.

Yes, God gave His "only begotten" son. Meaning that the word *SON* is referring to the flesh that God came to Earth in....to die for our sins.

No, I am seeing it for what it says, you are trying to tell me that it means something else. Please show me a scriptural reference that proves the "only begotten Son" is referring to the flesh that God came to earth in. It isn't in this verse, it isn't in the context of the chapter it isn't even in the defintion of the word in the original langauge that it was written in.

Why should I believe what you say, when you have no scripture to prove your interpretation?

Let me show you what it does mean.

Only Begotten means:

Strong's Number: 3439 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace' Adjective

Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God


King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1

Strong's Number: 5207 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
uiJovß apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Huios 8:334,1206
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hwee-os' Noun Masculine

Definition
a son
rarely used for the young of animals
generally used of the offspring of men
in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)
in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,
the children of Israel
sons of Abraham
used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower
a pupil

Where do you get that this is referring to God (The Father) being in the flesh? That is what you have been taught, but it isn't in the text, it isn't in the orginal languages, it isn't anywhere in the Bible.

Originally posted by MEE:

A Spirit has 'no' blood. So, the God of heaven came to Earth, in the form of man, in order to shed "HIS BLOOD" for the sins of the world. He didn't send "his little son" (second person of the Trinity) to die. He did it himself. See?

MEE

So are you denying that Jesus is the Son of God? By changing the definition of the Son of God, you are indeed not believing the record that God gave us of his Son in the Holy scriptures. These same Holy Scriptures say that the Father loved the Son before the foundation of the world. Nothing there about loving his flesh, now is there?

You still have not explained why the Father seems to talk to his flesh and love it so personally. Why does he call the flesh his Son? Why not just call it GOD? When it says that the Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven, does that mean there is a clump of flesh at the feet of the Father?

You keep objecting to our verses by explaining what they supposedly really mean. Sorry, but the Bible also says it is not of any man's private interpretation and since there is no biblical proof to show that the Son referred only to the flesh then you are interpreting something that isn't revealed in the Word.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
I agree, John 3:16 is very clear. It's just that you don't see it for what it is saying.

Yes, God gave His "only begotten" son. Meaning that the word *SON* is referring to the flesh that God came to Earth in....to die for our sins.

No, I am seeing it for what it says, you are trying to tell me that it means something else. Please show me a scriptural reference that proves the "only begotten Son" is referring to the flesh that God came to earth in. It isn't in this verse, it isn't in the context of the chapter it isn't even in the defintion of the word in the original langauge that it was written in.

Why should I believe what you say, when you have no scripture to prove your interpretation?

Let me show you what it does mean.

Only Begotten means:

Strong's Number: 3439 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace' Adjective

Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God


King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1

Strong's Number: 5207 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
uiJovß apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Huios 8:334,1206
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hwee-os' Noun Masculine

Definition
a son
rarely used for the young of animals
generally used of the offspring of men
in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)
in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,
the children of Israel
sons of Abraham
used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower
a pupil

Where do you get that this is referring to God (The Father) being in the flesh? That is what you have been taught, but it isn't in the text, it isn't in the orginal languages, it isn't anywhere in the Bible.

Originally posted by MEE:

A Spirit has 'no' blood. So, the God of heaven came to Earth, in the form of man, in order to shed "HIS BLOOD" for the sins of the world. He didn't send "his little son" (second person of the Trinity) to die. He did it himself. See?

MEE

So are you denying that Jesus is the Son of God? By changing the definition of the Son of God, you are indeed not believing the record that God gave us of his Son in the Holy scriptures. These same Holy Scriptures say that the Father loved the Son before the foundation of the world. Nothing there about loving his flesh, now is there?

You still have not explained why the Father seems to talk to his flesh and love it so personally. Why does he call the flesh his Son? Why not just call it GOD? When it says that the Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven, does that mean there is a clump of flesh at the feet of the Father?

You keep objecting to our verses by explaining what they supposedly really mean. Sorry, but the Bible also says it is not of any man's private interpretation and since there is no biblical proof to show that the Son referred only to the flesh then you are interpreting something that isn't revealed in the Word.

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

No, I am seeing it for what it says, you are trying to tell me that it means something else. Please show me a scriptural reference that proves the "only begotten Son" is referring to the flesh that God came to earth in. It isn't in this verse, it isn't in the context of the chapter it isn't even in the defintion of the word in the original langauge that it was written in.

So are you telling me you see Acts 2:38 for what it says? Are you telling us that You see Acts 8 for what it says? Are you telling us you see Acts 10 for what it says? Are you telling us you see Acts 19 for what it says?

Acts 2:38 ”SAYS “Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS”

You don’t have to answer me but I know you don’t take this for what it says do you? If you did you would be agreeing with MEE’s position and myself.

You have told us that baptism is not for the remission of sins. But that’s what Acts 2:38 SAYS. You have told us that they did not say the Name of Jesus when they baptized, but that’s what the bible SAYS

So why do you tell us you see things for what they say when in reality you do not?

Again Acts 2:38 SAYS

And Peter said to them Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now the next time we have a discussion I expect you to be obeying this ”WORD FOR WORD” b/c that is what it says. END OF STORY

Only Begotten means:

Strong's Number: 3439 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace' Adjective

Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God


King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1

Strong's Number: 5207 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
uiJovß apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Huios 8:334,1206
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hwee-os' Noun Masculine

Definition
a son
rarely used for the young of animals
generally used of the offspring of men
in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)
in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,
the children of Israel
sons of Abraham
used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower
a pupil

Let me show you what something else means.

You say the Son is eternally begotten. In order to be begotten that means that you have a “STARTING POINT”

Did the son have a starting point before everything else was?

Where do you get that this is referring to God (The Father) being in the flesh? That is what you have been taught, but it isn't in the text, it isn't in the orginal languages, it isn't anywhere in the Bible.

1 Tim 3:16

You still have not explained why the Father seems to talk to his flesh and love it so personally. Why does he call the flesh his Son? Why not just call it GOD?

THE FATHER calls the flesh the Son b/c he was the one that caused the conception. The one that causes the conception is THE FATHER.

When it says that the Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven, does that mean there is a clump of flesh at the feet of the Father?

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So I guess you expect to see a slain lamb when you get to heaven too?
God bless

Brian

[ October 03, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[MEE]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------
When it says that the Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven, does that mean there is a clump of flesh at the feet of the Father?

--------------------------------------------------
When I see remarks like "clump of flesh, tongue talkers, or holy rollers, it literally grieves the Holy Spirit. Remarks like the one above doesn't even deserve a response, at least not from me. It makes me sick and sad all at the same time.

Brian, you did a great job, but I don't think an answer like you gave was deserved to anyone with such a bad spirit.

MEE

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Dear MEE~The reason I use the blanket-term of tongue talkers is because it best describes the many folks in my area who claim to do it...

Otherwise I'd have to write out all these names each time & I'd probably still leave some out: UPCs, Apostolics, Charismatics, some Baptists, and the many others. Our parish is about 90% in error.

I do not mean anything personal by using it and I am sorry if it offends you. It saddens me when I see Brian mock, ridicule, high five, poke fun, make light, laugh, etc...but I don't get mad or anything. I'm rather used to it by now from my own son.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
Dear MEE~The reason I use the blanket-term of tongue talkers is because it best describes the many folks in my area who claim to do it...

Otherwise I'd have to write out all these names each time & I'd probably still leave some out: UPCs, Apostolics, Charismatics, some Baptists, and the many others. Our parish is about 90% in error.

I do not mean anything personal by using it and I am sorry if it offends you. It saddens me when I see Brian mock, ridicule, high five, poke fun, make light, laugh, etc...but I don't get mad or anything. I'm rather used to it by now from my own son.

Granny I have never high fived anyone. The only thing that I have ever said about high fives was giveing the father one when we get to heaven. I was useing that to make a point.

You say we are in error, and I guess we say the same about you. Most of you guys you say that you take the bible for what is says. I have proven you otherwise. When I am in error, I admit it. When you are in error you cant.

I promise you, I am not in error about the God head. I have had many comformations from God. I cant explain them away, and dont think for one second I will allow you to do the same.

I know who the the son in the new testament is. He is none other than the father robed in flesh. If you want to devide the one God into three separate parts feel free. But for me, I will choose to obey the scriptures for what they are telling us.

Granny, we are told that we must repent, and that we must be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. He even told us "Everyone of you". Was it just for those on Pentecost? No it is for us all.

And when you can understand that you will see how our God is One and not three as you suppose.

God bless

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Most of you guys you say that you take the bible for what is says. I have proven you otherwise. When I am in error.

The only thing you have proven is that you don't listen to a word we say and that you are good at changing the subject when you don't have an answer to the question that is asked.

I have not responded to your accusations against me because we have discussed those verses on NUMEROUS occassions and I have backed up my belief in them BIBLICALLY.

Since niether you nor MEE can tell me why the "only begotten Son" refers to the flesh, you try to attack me on things that have already been covered and are not even on topic.

Remember, I clarified that I was looking at the entire context and found this explanation no where to be found. It wasn't in the verse, the chapter, the entire Bible nor in defintions of the original languages. NOWHERE is this defintion found to be valid.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
I promise you, I am not in error about the God head. I have had many comformations from God. I cant explain them away, and dont think for one second I will allow you to do the same.

This right here is good evidence to prove that your belief is NOT from God. The Bible says that no scripture is of any private interpretation, yet you claim to get confirmations from God that isn't in His Word. You change the meanings of the Titles of God based upon this revelation that you "can't explain away"

Well Oneness, I CAN explain it away, because the Word of God is the final authority on any belief or doctrine. It is to be used to correct to instruct and no where does the Bible tell me that what revelation he gives to you, MEE, or any other Oneness believer should supercede and redifine what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write.

Originally posted by MEE:
When I see remarks like "clump of flesh, tongue talkers, or holy rollers, it literally grieves the Holy Spirit. Remarks like the one above doesn't even deserve a response, at least not from me. It makes me sick and sad all at the same time.

You said it MEE, I did not.

Originally posted by MEE:
Yes, God gave His "only begotten" son. Meaning that the word *SON* is referring to the flesh that God came to Earth in....to die for our sins

When you make statements like that, then that is the vision that I come up with. I am sorry If I don't understand what you mean, but I can't be helped to further understand that explanation when you ignore my request for biblical proof to show me that what it says actually means what YOU say it says.

Originally posted by MEE:

Brian, you did a great job, but I don't think an answer like you gave was deserved to anyone with such a bad spirit.

I am sorry you feel that way, but I don't feel I have posted with a bad spirit, in fact I would say that the tone of Oneness' last post was rather rude and demanding, especially since he knows that his accuastions are lies. He knows that I have a solid biblical reason for my beliefs, he just disagrees with them.

In all of his huffing and puffing, did he actually ever answer the question?

I guess you are right on one thing, he did a great job at avoiding the issue.

I think we shoud all agree that this conversation has run it's course. I for one, am done with this thread.

Yes Oneness I said that before, but that was when you shut the thread down to just the two of us...when I wasn't even here to agree to such an arrangement, for I was at the hospital while my 10 month old was undergoing surgery.

I then tried to address a question that MEE had asked. My statements had been designated at her only, but you wouldn't afford me the courtesy to do so. Anyway, I thought MEE had actually wanted to know what we meant when we said person but apparantly MEE feels that while she is allowed to ask questions, my questions aren't deserving of a response.

I have found many of your responses offensive as well, so please let's not play the martyr game shall we?

Good day to you both.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Most of you guys you say that you take the bible for what is says. I have proven you otherwise. When I am in error.

The only thing you have proven is that you don't listen to a word we say and that you are good at changing the subject when you don't have an answer to the question that is asked.

I have not responded to your accusations against me because we have discussed those verses on NUMEROUS occassions and I have backed up my belief in them BIBLICALLY.

Since niether you nor MEE can tell me why the "only begotten Son" refers to the flesh, you try to attack me on things that have already been covered and are not even on topic.

Remember, I clarified that I was looking at the entire context and found this explanation no where to be found. It wasn't in the verse, the chapter, the entire Bible nor in defintions of the original languages. NOWHERE is this defintion found to be valid.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
I promise you, I am not in error about the God head. I have had many comformations from God. I cant explain them away, and dont think for one second I will allow you to do the same.

This right here is good evidence to prove that your belief is NOT from God. The Bible says that no scripture is of any private interpretation, yet you claim to get confirmations from God that isn't in His Word. You change the meanings of the Titles of God based upon this revelation that you "can't explain away"

Well Oneness, I CAN explain it away, because the Word of God is the final authority on any belief or doctrine. It is to be used to correct to instruct and no where does the Bible tell me that what revelation he gives to you, MEE, or any other Oneness believer should supercede and redifine what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write.

Originally posted by MEE:
When I see remarks like "clump of flesh, tongue talkers, or holy rollers, it literally grieves the Holy Spirit. Remarks like the one above doesn't even deserve a response, at least not from me. It makes me sick and sad all at the same time.

You said it MEE, I did not.

Originally posted by MEE:
Yes, God gave His "only begotten" son. Meaning that the word *SON* is referring to the flesh that God came to Earth in....to die for our sins

When you make statements like that, then that is the vision that I come up with. I am sorry If I don't understand what you mean, but I can't be helped to further understand that explanation when you ignore my request for biblical proof to show me that what it says actually means what YOU say it says.

Originally posted by MEE:

Brian, you did a great job, but I don't think an answer like you gave was deserved to anyone with such a bad spirit.

I am sorry you feel that way, but I don't feel I have posted with a bad spirit, in fact I would say that the tone of Oneness' last post was rather rude and demanding, especially since he knows that his accuastions are lies. He knows that I have a solid biblical reason for my beliefs, he just disagrees with them.

In all of his huffing and puffing, did he actually ever answer the question?

I guess you are right on one thing, he did a great job at avoiding the issue.

I think we shoud all agree that this conversation has run it's course. I for one, am done with this thread.

Yes Oneness I said that before, but that was when you shut the thread down to just the two of us...when I wasn't even here to agree to such an arrangement, for I was at the hospital while my 10 month old was undergoing surgery.

I then tried to address a question that MEE had asked. My statements had been designated at her only, but you wouldn't afford me the courtesy to do so. Anyway, I thought MEE had actually wanted to know what we meant when we said person but apparantly MEE feels that while she is allowed to ask questions, my questions aren't deserving of a response.

I have found many of your responses offensive as well, so please let's not play the martyr game shall we?

Good day to you both.

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

The only thing you have proven is that you don't listen to a word we say and that you are good at changing the subject when you don't have an answer to the question that is asked.

Again, what questions have I ignored? You say we attack you on certain things when we cant tell you “how begotten refers to the flesh”. But you guys do the exact same thing. It’s a two way debate. When you cant answer something you go right back to the same old questions. Are you mad b/c we do the exact same things as you? Have you set a double standard?

I have not responded to your accusations against me because we have discussed those verses on NUMEROUS occassions and I have backed up my belief in them BIBLICALLY.

And that’s exactly what we have done. We have backed ours up biblically. You say you take it for what is says. And that’s fine I do to. The bible says to baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And that my friend is exactly what we do. We baptize in the Name of Jesus b/c the Name Jesus is the Name of the Father, The Name Jesus is the Name of the Son, and The Name Jesus is the Name of the Holy Ghost.

The only difference is that we obey what Jesus says instead of repeating it.

Since niether you nor MEE can tell me why the "only begotten Son" refers to the flesh, you try to attack me on things that have already been covered and are not even on topic.

I have given you reasons why. If the Son is a second person in the God head, and the Son has always been, how was he begotten? To be begotten you must have a starting point in time. Do you see where I am going? That would mean that The son has not always been. And that would be contrary to the doctrine of the Trinity.

There was no son in the beginning. The only thing that was in the beginning was the word. And that word became Flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

This right here is good evidence to prove that your belief is NOT from God. The Bible says that no scripture is of any private interpretation, yet you claim to get confirmations from God that isn't in His Word. You change the meanings of the Titles of God based upon this revelation that you "can't explain away"

Lorelie, I never interpreted it. All that happened was “Someone showed me something one day IN THE WORD OF GOD. I then prayed about it. And then God confirmed it. I did not have to do the interpreting, God did the interpreting for me.

Where do you see in the word of God that God does not confirm his word? Please show me, b/c I am going to come back and bust about a dozen scriptures out and take you back to Sunday School so you can get a FULL COURSE MEAL. Its obvious that you have been deprived.

I changed the titles of God? So you are admitting that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles now? Looks like we might be going somewhere.

And you are right, there are some things that cant be explained away. Has God ever done anything for you that you cant explain it away? Has God ever healed your kids? Has a miracle ever happened to you?

Lorelei, I know for a fact that you have never fasted b/c you have said so. Now, I am not any holier than thou so don’t take it the wrong way. But God has so much more to offer. God can give you revelations, He can still do wonders, and he can still make miracles happen.

So please, don’t ever try to down play something that God has done for someone else. I’m not in competition with you. I’m not saying that just b/c things that I have done and things that God has done for me makes me any better than you. All I am is a big clump of dirt that God saw fit to breath life in. I’m just trying to show you that God is big enough to take care of all the things on Earth and in Heaven, All at the exact same time without having to be divided or subdivided, Split in two or three, and without having to be separated into persons.

I will say it like this again. Our God loved us so much that he did not send someone else to come die for our sins. Our God Jehovah robed himself in flesh, called that flesh the Son, bled and died for our sins and rose again so that we would stand a chance. As I have said before, I will say again God did not send another person to come die for us, He did it all himself

Well Oneness, I CAN explain it away, because the Word of God is the final authority on any belief or doctrine. It is to be used to correct to instruct and no where does the Bible tell me that what revelation he gives to you, MEE, or any other Oneness believer should supercede and redifine what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write.

Lorelei if God confirms something it will not redefine what has been written in scriptures. Conformations only confirm what scriptures say and mean. That is why it is called a conformation. We are not asking for a conformation for something that is not outlined in the Bible.

I am sorry you feel that way, but I don't feel I have posted with a bad spirit, in fact I would say that the tone of Oneness' last post was rather rude and demanding, especially since he knows that his accuastions are lies. He knows that I have a solid biblical reason for my beliefs, he just disagrees with them.

Hey and I do want to apologize for some of the things I did say. But on the other hand I still hod firm to the statements I made about you taking the word of God for what it says. And again please forgive me for the tone I cam across in.

In all of his huffing and puffing, did he actually ever answer the question?

I guess you are right on one thing, he did a great job at avoiding the issue.

What did I avoid? Quit blaming and just simply ask a question, and if I see it I will answer it. To my knowledge I answered every one of your questions.

Lorelei, Just wanted to take a brief moment to say thank you for all that you have encouraged me to do. You have challenged me to the point where it keeps my nose in the word of God and in studying the word of God.

I could never tell you how much I thought I knew that I did not know until I got back inside of the book.

I want you to know that I really prayed for you this past weekend. And I also did pray that God would allow you to see some of the things that I have showed you. But I asked it in a different way when I prayed this week. I don’t wont you to see something b/c I showed you. I want you to see it b/c it’s the truth.

I know we have our different views but It does please me to know that you are grounded in what you believe. You take a stand and that is great, b/c if you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything.

And again I will continue to be in prayer for you. I don’t know why but you and Don are always on my mind. You are always lifted up before God, so please know that and don’t think that I am only praying for you to see things. But I am also praying for your well being.

Because if anyone knows how important prayer is I do. And I know that I need yours.

Sincerely

Brian