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Only Those Whom the Father Draws to Christ

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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
silverhair



Yes they are miracles of Grace. New Birth is a Miracle, and so its fruit of believing on Christ is a miracle. Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Without the miracle of Divine Intervention with the New Birth men cannot believe in Christ.

And yet you deny the bible. Remember Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

God has given us creation, conviction, the gospel. That is why man has no excuse but you keep saying that they do. If they are not dragged by God then they can't come according to your theology. Man is given the New Birth after they believe not before.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Yes, they hear, after being quickened to spiritual life.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ezekiel 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
Lot of folk here dont believe in the total inability spiritually of the natural man.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
There is your problem, you need God the miraculously save you before you even believe. That is just plain foolish. It is not a miracle that God saves those that trust in His son, it is God's response to those that fulfill the condition that He has set for salvation.
Typical salvation by works.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
And yet you deny the bible. Remember Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

God has given us creation, conviction, the gospel. That is why man has no excuse but you keep saying that they do. If they are not dragged by God then they can't come according to your theology. Man is given the New Birth after they believe not before.
Without the Miracle of God intervening with newbirth, and drawing a person, man cant believe. Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
There is your problem, you need God the miraculously save you before you even believe. That is just plain foolish. It is not a miracle that God saves those that trust in His son, it is God's response to those that fulfill the condition that He has set for salvation.

Wow! Sounds much like the false Pelagianism I was raised on in the Church of Christ.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Lot of folk here dont believe in the total inability spiritually of the natural man.

Yep. I didn't believe it either when I lost in false religion.

I hadn't noticed that the Baptist Board software changed the combination of a semicolon and a closed parenthesis into a wink. :)
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just why do you think that God used the term "dead" if he didn't mean dead as human beings understand the word from their time on this earth?


If He meant dead as you say then you have a problem. See a corps can neither say yes or no. It can neither respond by saying yes or no. You all want a corps to be unable to say yes but truth is a corps cant say or respond at all. Its a self defeating argument.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Without the Miracle of God intervening with newbirth, and drawing a person, man cant believe. Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Just why do you think that God used the term "dead" if he didn't mean dead as human beings understand the word from their time on this earth?

Why do you think dead people can sin? Your the one that keeps saying that dead people can't trust so they can't sin either. Your errant theology does not stand up to the test or the text.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Wow! Sounds much like the false Pelagianism I was raised on in the Church of Christ.

So that's where you learned your failed understanding of the bible. You may have left that church but like Augustine you did not leave the bad theology you learned.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

"and they shall be all taught of God; by his Spirit to know themselves, and Jesus Christ; that is, all that are ordained to eternal life; all that are given to Christ, and are chosen in him; all the children of Zion, and who are the children of God; these are all, sooner or later, in a special manner, taught of God: and which does not intend mere external instructions, and objective teachings by the ministry of the word, for many are so taught, who never come to Christ; but special teachings, such as are attended with the energy of divine grace, and the power of the Spirit of God, who guides into all truth, savingly and spiritually: for this is to be understood of their being taught in the Gospel of Christ, and not in the law"

"But our Lord, by these words, instructs us, and would have us observe, that all that the Father hath given him, whether Jews or Gentiles, of whom he had been speaking in the preceding verses, should be taught of God; and so taught, as to be drawn and brought to him, and believe in him, and have everlasting life: wherefore he infers from hence, that every man, whether a Jew or a Gentile, that is taught of God, will come to him in a spiritual way, and trust in him for eternal life and happiness, as follows: every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me; everyone that has heard the voice of the Father's love, grace, and mercy in the Gospel, and has learned of him the way of peace, life, and salvation by Christ, under the influence of his grace, comes unto Christ; being encouraged by the declarations and promises of grace he has heard and learned, and ventures his soul on Christ, and commits it to him; trusting and relying on his person, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, for justification, pardon, atonement, acceptance with God, and eternal life."

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on John 6:45
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
"and they shall be all taught of God; by his Spirit to know themselves, and Jesus Christ; that is, all that are ordained to eternal life; all that are given to Christ, and are chosen in him; all the children of Zion, and who are the children of God; these are all, sooner or later, in a special manner, taught of God: and which does not intend mere external instructions, and objective teachings by the ministry of the word, for many are so taught, who never come to Christ; but special teachings, such as are attended with the energy of divine grace, and the power of the Spirit of God, who guides into all truth, savingly and spiritually: for this is to be understood of their being taught in the Gospel of Christ, and not in the law"

"But our Lord, by these words, instructs us, and would have us observe, that all that the Father hath given him, whether Jews or Gentiles, of whom he had been speaking in the preceding verses, should be taught of God; and so taught, as to be drawn and brought to him, and believe in him, and have everlasting life: wherefore he infers from hence, that every man, whether a Jew or a Gentile, that is taught of God, will come to him in a spiritual way, and trust in him for eternal life and happiness, as follows: every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me; everyone that has heard the voice of the Father's love, grace, and mercy in the Gospel, and has learned of him the way of peace, life, and salvation by Christ, under the influence of his grace, comes unto Christ; being encouraged by the declarations and promises of grace he has heard and learned, and ventures his soul on Christ, and commits it to him; trusting and relying on his person, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, for justification, pardon, atonement, acceptance with God, and eternal life."

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on John 6:45

There you go quoting your Calvinist documents again rather than the bible. You need to get your priorities straight. The bible is the authority not those Calvinist doc's.

But I do understand why you keep posting them, they are the only thing that supports your view.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Why do you think dead people can sin?

It is in the nature of fallen man that they sin(which is why Christians continue to sin even after regeneration). It also that fallen nature that makes them spiritually dead and unable to respond in true saving faith unless God gives them life in the Son. That is the source of life - the Son: 1 John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Verse 12 states if one is not in the Son of God, then he has not life, he is dead spiritually. Thus, a fallen sinner must be born again. There is no other way to obtain spiritual life.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
So that's where you learned your failed understanding of the bible. You may have left that church but like Augustine you did not leave the bad theology you learned.

How do you possibly arrive at the conclusion that I am still adhering to Pelagianism?
 
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