Open Challenge

[Dr. Walter]

You have stated that no person is regenerated until they step in the water of baptism. You have stated that no person beleives with his heart (Rom. 10:10a) or confesses with his mouth (Rom. 10:10b) or is regenerated (thus blind, ignorant, rebellious with enmity toward God, dark heart - Rom. 8:7; Eph. 4:18) until they step in the waters of baptism. Thus your position requires unconfessed, unbelieving, unrepentant, god hating, ignorant, blinded, unregenerates as candidates for baptism.

CHALLENGE#1: Provide one example where anyone anywhere in the book of Acts accepted as candidates and baptized unrepentant unbelievers?

CHALLENGE #2: Explain how you can baptize those who do not confess Christ with the mouth (Rom. 10:10) and yet know who you are to baptize??

 

[Dr. Walter]

CHALLENGE #3 - Do you believe that the basis for justification is the Person and redemptive work finished by Christ? If so, do you believe that this must first be the OBJECT of faith IN THE HEART BEFORE there can be actions of obedience by your body? If so, then is not what is embraced in the heart DIFFERENT than what is performed by the body? Is not that the difference between CHRIST'S FINISHED WORKS verus your NEW and UNFINISHED WORKS and thus the difference between the object of faith in his works versus what is produced by faith in your works???

 

[Dr. Walter]

CHALLENGE #4: What must happen with the heart and mind of a person BEFORE they are not merely willing to be baptized but convinced they should be baptized? Can anyone be an unbeliever in the gospel and unrepentant of their sins and yet willing submit to baptism?

However, isn't this exactly your position that all candidates for baptism are still in unbelief in regard to their heart (Rom. 10:10) and therefore unrepentant toward sin as the Biblical order is always "repent and believe" the gospel?

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Baptism is the completion of initial conversion to Christ in the sense that it objectifies the subjective experiences of repenting and believing. Repenting and believing are like driving a nail through a board, but baptism is like bending that nail over on the other side.

Baptism is the completion of initial conversion to Christ in the sense that it is inward repentance and faith outwardly expressed. It makes initial conversion to Christ wholistic instead of allowing it to be a Platonic, gnostic-like, subjective experience known only to the convert himself.

In the book of Acts, which is THE textbook on evangelism/missions, conversion to Christ was both inward and outward, not just inward. If it were inward only, Christ's apostles would not have included a call to baptism in their evangelistic preaching.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Initial conversion to Christ is one life experience with various constituent parts. When a person is converted to Christ in a New Testament manner, he becomes a repentant, believing, confessing, baptized disciple of Christ. He is not just a person who has inwardly repented and believed, but he is one who has outwardly confessed Christ in baptism and publicly identified himself with the New Covenant people of God.

 

[DHK]

Baptism is the completion of initial conversion to Christ in the sense that it objectifies the subjective experiences of repenting and believing. Repenting and believing are like driving a nail through a board, but baptism is like bending that nail over on the other side.

No wonder you are so confused. Repenting and believing are by no means subjective.

Baptism is the completion of initial conversion to Christ in the sense that it is inward repentance and faith outwardly expressed. It makes initial conversion to Christ wholistic instead of allowing it to be a Platonic, gnostic-like, subjective experience known only to the convert himself.

This is heresy. It is your religion and only yours that would equate baptism to gnosticism.

In the book of Acts, which is THE textbook on evangelism/missions, conversion to Christ was both inward and outward, not just inward. If it were inward only, Christ's apostles would not have included a call to baptism in their evangelistic preaching.

You sound like a mystic.
You know the Oneness Pentecostal could not preach the gospel without using the Book of Acts. You are having the same problem.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

I have not equated baptism with Gnosticism, and I am totally opposed to mysticism. I am convinced that initial conversion to Christ is both subjective and objective in nature in the New Testament. The objective aspect of conversion protects against overly-subjective mysticism, and it gives the convert something to hang his hat on in relation to his conversion. He can always look back to his baptism as the time when he objectively expressed his subjective repentance and faith, making them real to himself and others.

 

[DHK]

I have not equated baptism with Gnosticism, and I am totally opposed to mysticism. I am convinced that initial conversion to Christ is both subjective and objective in nature in the New Testament. The objective aspect of conversion protects against overly-subjective mysticism, and it gives the convert something to hang his hat on in relation to his conversion. He can always look back to his baptism as the time when he objectively expressed his subjective repentance and faith, making them real to himself and others.

There was nothing subjective about me trusting Christ as my Savior. And I wasn't baptized until two years later. I can only conclude that you are speaking of gnosticism and/or mysticism (and you used the word gnosticism first in your own explanation).

What is subjective about repentance?
What is subjective about believing?

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Brother DHK, When you and I repent and believe, we do so inwardly, invisibly, and spiritually, not outwardly, visibly, and physically. This is what makes the exercise of repentance and faith subjective in nature. We know that this is subjective in nature, because others cannot tell if we are repenting and believing at the time we do so. They cannot say if we are repenting and believing or not. Baptism, on the other hand, is an objective experience.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK, When you and I repent and believe, we do so inwardly, invisibly, and spiritually, not outwardly, visibly, and physically. This is what makes the exercise of repentance and faith subjective in nature. We know that this is subjective in nature, because others cannot tell if we are repenting and believing at the time we do so. They cannot say if we are repenting and believing or not. Baptism, on the other hand, is an objective experience.

If others cannot tell that you have repented then you have not repented.
It is a decision that you have made.
It is as much a decision you make to drive a car. Is that also subjective?

 

[steaver]

He can always look back to his baptism as the time when he objectively expressed his subjective repentance and faith, making them real to himself and others.

This is absurd.

I might think of my water baptism about once a year if that. I never look back and think to myself that is when I received Christ and He became real to me. I look back to the time I was ten years old and heard Billy Graham preach the gospel. I believed and prayed that very night for Jesus Christ to forgive me and save me. From that time forward I walked in the Spirit of Christ. Twenty-three years later I was baptised in water at age thirty-three.

You would have me outside of Christ for all those years even though I followed Him and worshipped Him in spirit and in truth. Having the witness within me crying ABBA Father.

Repent my friend before you wonder beyond repair.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Brother Steaver, My chief concern is about conversion in the New Testament, not your conversion or mine. Based upon the New Testament, however, we can safely say that it is not normal (the norm) to become a Christian 23 years before one is baptized.

It appears that you look back to a prayer you prayed at the age of 10 as the objective side of your conversion. That is, you hang your conversion hat on a religious experience you had while listening to Billy Graham preach.

The problem I see is as follows: When Christ's apostles preached the gospel, they called upon their hearers to repent, believe, and confess Christ in baptism. Billy Graham has never preached the gospel in this way. Instead, he has called upon his hearers to repent, believe, and pray a prayer for salvation, then he has provided them with literature about their need AS CHRISTIANS to be baptized. Billy Graham-style preaching does not lead to the normal kind of conversions we read about in the New Testament. At best, it leads to abnormal conversions that are unlike what we read about in the New Testament.

In the New Testament, Christians were repentant, believing, baptized disciples of Christ, even as you are today. If you want to date your conversion earlier than I might, that is perfectly OK with me. It is between God and your soul, and I have no business coming between the two.

 

[steaver]

It appears that you look back to a prayer you prayed at the age of 10 as the objective side of your conversion. That is, you hang your conversion hat on a religious experience you had while listening to Billy Graham preach.

Wrong. I did not have a "religious experience". I was what is called "born-again". Look it up, it happens when Jesus Christ enters a person and their spirit becomes alive in Christ. Two become one, a new creation, the old is passing away, all things become new. This is all Bible 101.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Is not being born again a religious experience?

 

[DHK]

Is not being born again a religious experience?

No. Pagans have religious experiences. Being born again is becoming a child of God and having a relationship with Jesus Christ. In order for that to happen, something very objective must take place, and baptism has nothing to do with it.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

You said "something very objective must take place." What is it?

 

[DHK]

The problem I see is as follows: When Christ's apostles preached the gospel, they called upon their hearers to repent, believe, and confess Christ in baptism.

You are dreaming, or you have a different Bible than I have, and I use the KJV. Perhaps you use the Book of Mormon? They have multiple baptisms.

Billy Graham has never preached the gospel in this way. Instead, he has called upon his hearers to repent, believe, and pray a prayer for salvation, then he has provided them with literature about their need AS CHRISTIANS to be baptized. Billy Graham-style preaching does not lead to the normal kind of conversions we read about in the New Testament. At best, it leads to abnormal conversions that are unlike what we read about in the New Testament.

Since you preach and teach an abnormal conversion, it doesn't seem that you know what a normal conversion is.

In the New Testament, Christians were repentant, believing, baptized disciples of Christ, even as you are today. If you want to date your conversion earlier than I might, that is perfectly OK with me. It is between God and your soul, and I have no business coming between the two.

Acts 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.

Do you believe this verse without reservation or qualification? A simple yes or no will do.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

I believe Acts 10:43, but not every condition for salvation is stated in this one verse. For instance, repentance is not mentioned. Also, to believe on Christ means to obey Him (see the Greek text of Jn. 3:36).

 

[rockytopsgt]

Although we must stay far away from baptismal regeneration, I agree that we tend to place too little emphasis on baptism. We must "repent and be baptized." it seems like some of us don't think it's even important. It shouldn't be the norm for people to be encouraged to wait for baptism after conversion.

 

[steaver]

Is not being born again a religious experience?

"Religion" is a man-made concept. True Christianity is a relationship with God through regeneration of the spirit by the Spirit of God, "born again".

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

THis is the only way one knows for sure they are IN CHrist. This relationship I knew from age ten.

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Becoming IN CHrist has nothing to do with water baptism. I have had the witness of Christ in me since age ten and twenty-three of those years with no baptism of water.

Regeneration is not a recipe one must follow. The Word is preached, the Father draws, the Spirit convicts and the person makes a choice. If the person submits and calls upon the Lord, God quickens their spirit and two become one new creation, forever sealed by the Holy Ghost (Eph 4).