Open Challenge

[DHK]

I believe Acts 10:43, but not every condition for salvation is stated in this one verse. For instance, repentance is not mentioned. Also, to believe on Christ means to obey Him (see the Greek text of Jn. 3:36).

No. Salvation is a one time act. Obedience is progressive. Once you put the word "obey" in there you have just admitted to a works-based salvation. That is why it is written

Acts 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.

And repentance? That is the flip side of faith.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

You have not provided one single solitary Biblical example in the book of Acts where unrepentant, unbelieving, unconfessed sinners were candidates for baptism!

You have not provided one single solitary Biblical example in the book of Acts where repentance and faith did not precede baptism!

Your philosophical subjective versus objective, internal versus external does not answer these challenges at all BECAUSE Romans 10:10 deals with the INTERNAL heart belief as well as EXTERNAL confession with the mouth in regard to the gospel BUT you deny it occurs previous to stepping in the water.

Therefore IN HEART your candidate for baptism is an unbeliever, unrepentant, without confession, and as you admit still UNREGNERATE - thus "alienated from the life of God THROUGH IGNORANCE and still having a DARKENED heart and without UNDERSTANDING, still at enmity with God, still in rebellion against God and still without spiritual discernment:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Paul further describes this state as "enmity with God" and in a state of rebellion against God's authoritiy" (Rom. 8:7) without spiritual discernment (1 Cor. 2:14) all of which are equally implied in Ephesians 4:18.


This reversal of this unregenerate state you insist cannot be changed until IN baptism.

You have yet to provide ONE SINGLE SOLITARY text in the book of Acts where anyone baptized this kind of candidate. Nor have you yet provided ONE SINGLE SOLITARY example where repentance or faith did not occur PREVIOUS to baptism.

Your philsophical internal versus external does not pass the muster of Romans 10:10 and your subjective versus objective malarky does not pass the muster of regeneration confined in baptism.

In other words, YOU HAVE NOT OFFERED ONE SINGLE STATEMENT, ONE SINGLE BIBLICAL EXAMPLE where anyone was baptized that did not repent and believe the gospel first.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

There can be no repenting and believing apart from the heart? God looks upon the heart! You have Rom. 10:10 confined within baptism! Hence, to use your own analogy there is no driving of the nail through wood until a person enters into water as the heart is in a state of unbelief according to your placement of Rom. 10:10 and where there is unbelief there is unrepentance.

Baptism is the completion of initial conversion to Christ in the sense that it objectifies the subjective experiences of repenting and believing. Repenting and believing are like driving a nail through a board, but baptism is like bending that nail over on the other side.

Baptism is the completion of initial conversion to Christ in the sense that it is inward repentance and faith outwardly expressed. It makes initial conversion to Christ wholistic instead of allowing it to be a Platonic, gnostic-like, subjective experience known only to the convert himself.

In the book of Acts, which is THE textbook on evangelism/missions, conversion to Christ was both inward and outward, not just inward. If it were inward only, Christ's apostles would not have included a call to baptism in their evangelistic preaching.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

You have the heart in unbelief prior to baptism. There can be no true repentance from an unbelieving heart! It is impossible! You have confessing in baptism. You have regeneration in baptism. Therefore, the only candidates you have for baptism are unbelieving, unrepentant, unconfessing, unregenerate people because you deny Rom. 10:10 originates outside of baptism.

Where in the scriptures can you cite one example where repentance and faith did not occur BEFORE baptism?????

When a person is converted to Christ in a New Testament manner, he becomes a repentant, believing, confessing, baptized disciple of Christ. He is not just a person who has inwardly repented and believed, but he is one who has outwardly confessed Christ in baptism and publicly identified himself with the New Covenant people of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

He can always look back to his baptism as the time when he objectively expressed his subjective repentance and faith, making them real to himself and others.

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

If repentance and faith are subjective experiences and baptism is the objective expression, you are still faced with the dilemma that you have restricted both to baptism and yet the New Testament does not know of a single example where repentance and faith did not PRECEDE baptism. Please provide one scriptural example of a unrepentant, unbeliever as the candidate for baptism in scripture?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

Brother Steaver, My chief concern is about conversion in the New Testament, not your conversion or mine. Based upon the New Testament, however, we can safely say that it is not normal (the norm) to become a Christian 23 years before one is baptized.

Can you find a single solitary scripture or example from scripture where repentance and faith did not occur BEFORE baptism??? If not, then are you not lying to Steaver????

It appears that you look back to a prayer you prayed at the age of 10 as the objective side of your conversion. That is, you hang your conversion hat on a religious experience you had while listening to Billy Graham preach.

The problem I see is as follows: When Christ's apostles preached the gospel, they called upon their hearers to repent, believe, and confess Christ in baptism.

I was baptized a week after my conversion to Christ. I remember distinctly the very moment that God dealt with me as I was sitting on the back pew. I had never seen myself as lost and under conviction of sin until that day. I remember God dealing with my heart, convicting me and bringing me to repentance and faith in Christ that very day. I came to church one kind of person and I left another kind of person. I have no such recollection a week later when I was baptized of any kind of further inward conversion.

Indeed, in common Baptist baptism, there is no confession of faith, except by the administrator who says "upon your confession of faith in Christ Jesus and by the authority invested in me by the church that Jesus built, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen"

In the New Testament, Christians were repentant, believing, baptized disciples of Christ, even as you are today. If you want to date your conversion earlier than I might, that is perfectly OK with me. It is between God and your soul, and I have no business coming between the two.

Wait! You have restricted Romans 10:10 within the administration of baptism. Therefore your lying to him! If you restrict Rom. 10:10 within baptism there can be no repentance and faith WIITH THE HEART and any other kind is false as God looketh upon the heart! Again, please provide one Biblical example where anyone baptized an unrepentant and unbelieving person who had never confessed salvation in Christ! If you can't, then Billy Graham is more scriptural than you are!!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

adisciplelearner denies that the candidate for baptism can believe in the gospel "WITH THE HEART" prior to baptism which means the heart still REJECTS THE GOSPEL right up to entrance into the waters of baptism.

Therefore, in the clearest terms, adisciplelearner believes one is baptized IN ORDER TO repent and beleive the gospel, IN ORDER TO confess Jesus Christ with the mouth, IN ORDER TO be regenerated and IN ORDER to obtain remission of sins.

Whether he acknowledges it or not THIS IS BAPTISMAL REGENERATION and in order for him to deny this is baptismal regeneration he must do two things; (1) Show one example where repentance and faith did not occur BEFORE baptism; (2) admit that Romans 10:10 occurs BEFORE baptism.

The first he CANNOT show and the second he WILL NOT admit and therefore both condemn his position on baptism as UNSCRIPTURAL.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Originally Posted by adisciplinedlearner
He can always look back to his baptism as the time when he objectively expressed his subjective repentance and faith, making them real to himself and others.

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

You have been in the ministry for years and no doubt you have told your own salvation experience from the pulpit over and over again like I have.

Please repeat what you have told your congregation for years when and where you were saved? Please demonstrate where you hang your hat?

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

At the age of 14, I heard the gospel preached by a GARBC pastor for several Sundays. On a particular Sunday morning, I presented myself as a candidate for baptism, and I expressed my repentance and faith in Christ in baptism that Sunday night. Many years later, I was unnecessarily re-baptized in an ABA church, thinking my GARBC baptism was not any good.

When I was converted at the age of 14, I did not have a deep understanding of the constituent parts of conversion. All I really knew then was that Jesus is the Saviour, I am a guilty, condemned sinner, and I desperately need Him. I thought of baptism as a way of publicly identifying myself as a new Christian who believes in His death, burial, and resurrection. I thought of my baptism as a way of settling the matter of my salvation and removing any doubts I previously had about it.

Before I was converted at the age of 14, I had read the New Testament quite a bit, had watched Billy Graham preach on TV many times, and had prayed many different times for Jesus to save me from my sins. If I was saved before the age of 14, my question would have to be, when was I saved? Those private prayer experiences now seem far too subjective to me, and I do not believe we are saved by praying a prayer..

 

[Dr. Walter]

At the age of 14, I heard the gospel preached by a GARBC pastor for several Sundays. On a particular Sunday morning, I presented myself as a candidate for baptism, and I expressed my repentance and faith in Christ in baptism that Sunday night. Many years later, I was unnecessarily re-baptized in an ABA church, thinking my GARBC baptism was not any good

What did you tell that GARBC pastor when he asked you to give your salvation testimony? Did you confess that you had not repented or believed in the gospel yet from your heart but was waiting to be baptized in order to repent and believe the gospel and confess Christ??????? This is exactly what you are demanding the Scripture teaches by your application of Rom. 10:10.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

I am not saying I was not an inwardly repenting, believing person on Sunday morning, but only that I outwardly expressed my repentance and faith by confessing Christ in baptism. This marked the completion of my initial conversion experience. My repentance and faith were subjective, but my baptism was objective. Together, they made up a wholistic conversion.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

When the GARBC pastor asked me in the baptistry if I was trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ to save me from my sins, I answered, "Yes, Sir."

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am not saying I was not an inwardly repenting, believing person on Sunday morning, but only that I outwardly expressed my repentance and faith by confessing Christ in baptism. This marked the completion of my initial conversion experience. My repentance and faith were subjective, but my baptism was objective. Together, they made up a wholistic conversion.

You have stated that Romans 10:10 does not occur until in the act of baptism. There can be no repenting and beleiving person when THE HEART of that person is still in UNBELIEF - "for WITH THE HEART man believeth"

Where there is no believing WITH THE HEART there is no true faith and where there is no true faith there is no true repentance as God looks upon THE HEART.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am not saying I was not an inwardly repenting, believing person on Sunday morning, but only that I outwardly expressed my repentance and faith by confessing Christ in baptism. This marked the completion of my initial conversion experience. My repentance and faith were subjective, but my baptism was objective. Together, they made up a wholistic conversion.

What did you tell the preacher/church on Sunday morning when they ask for your testimony?????? According to your intepretation of Romans 10:10 you could not tell them anything or given any kind of testimony about repentance or faith in Christ as you deny that HEART BELIEF in the gospel can occur outside the waters of baptism.

There can be no TRUE repentance or faith in Christ WITHOUT the heart because it is "WITH THE HEART man believeth unto righteousness" - Rom. 10:10

What did you tell the preacher/church that Sunday morning BEFORE they baptized you that convinced them to baptize you? What was your PUBLIC testimony BEFORE baptism????

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner


A human being is either Lost or saved - there is no third option.

A human being is either unregenerated or regenerated - there is no third option

A human being is either a child of Satan or a child of God - there is no third option.

Therefore, if as you insist Romans 10:10 ("with the heart man believeth unto righteousness") occurs in the waters of baptism then prior to stepping into those waters that person is in the HEART condition described in Ephesians 4:18

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

The words "being alienated from the life of God" demands this is the unregenerated state of the heart - "blindness of their heart" and demands this is state of understanding - "the understanding darkened."

Therefore, we should NEVER find precepts or examples in Scripture that place repentance and faith BEFORE baptism if Romans 10:10 does not occur until in baptism.

However, EVERY precept and EVERY example shows repentance and faith in the gospel PRECEDES baptism.

This is conclusive proof that your interpretation of Romans 10:10 is wrong and your whole view of baptism and salvation is equally wrong.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Quote:
Originally Posted by adisciplinedlearner
The New Testament baptismal texts show that people were baptized in order to become Christians, not because they already were Christians. They were baptized in order to receive a double cure from the disease called sin, namely, the remission of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit.

Your inept responses expose your doctrine as heretical and unbiblical as there is not ONE PASSAGE in all of Scripture you can show or produce where either repentance or faith did not occur BEFORE baptism.


Your doctrine, your interpretation requires, demands, necessitates that both gospel repentance and faith occur IN baptism and not before and you admit it:

Yes, Romans 10:10 is carried out in baptism, during which a sinner repents, believes, and confesses Christ - adisciplelearner

However, the most significant admission of your error is your own inability or unwillingness to tell the truth about YOUR OWN TESTIMONY given before that pastor/church for you to be considered for baptism! The proof is in the pudding, isn't it??

 

[Alive in Christ]

adisciplinedlearner,

How do you deal with the fact that I personally was born of the Spirit...regenerated...with the normal change in wants and desires that verifies a legitimate conversion........a full 6 MONTHS before I was water baptized?

And of course there are multitudes of others, some contributing to this thread.

You seem to be ignoring the GIANT GORILLA in the room....



The testimony of millions of christians. :wavey:

 

[Dr. Walter]

adisciplinedlearner,

How do you deal with the fact that I personally was born of the Spirit...regenerated...with the normal change in wants and desires that verifies a legitimate conversion........a full 6 MONTHS before I was water baptized?

And of course there are multitudes of others, some contributing to this thread.

You seem to be ignoring the GIANT GORILLA in the room....



The testimony of millions of christians. :wavey:

Not only so, but if what adisciplelearner says is true than John the Baptist was in error for demanding "FRUITS" of repentance BEFORE he would baptize (Mt. 3:6-8).

adisciplelearner interprets the scriptures to force it to mean that gospel repentance cannot occur before baptism. Jesus preached the same message as John (Mk 1:14-15) and therefore Jesus believed the "fruits" of repentance can be brought forth WITHOUT baptism as that is exactly what it must be if brought forth BEFORE baptism!

 

[DHK]

Come to think about it, I know of very few people in this day and age who are saved and baptized the same day, much less the same hour, or within the same five minutes, or one minute or however "simultaneous" they have to be in order all work together in this magical superstitious baptismal regeneration. It really has me confused.

In our church it is Scriptural. It is decent and in order.
We are having a baptismal service this coming Sunday morning.
Three believers will be baptized. It will be in obedience to the command of Christ, for they have recently come to know the Savior, having put their faith in Him. How much time has elapsed between their conversion and this coming Sunday I am not sure. It is at least one week, and quite possible up to one year.

I know of another church, a rather small church, that has a baptismal service only once a month (if that often), even if there are souls that are saved earlier on in the month. It is no big deal if they wait a few days. They are not going to lose the salvation that Christ gave them. It is Christ that forgave their sins, not H2O.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If adisciplelearner had said that his salvation was completed in baptism by confession with his mouth that might have been more acceptable.

However, God looks upon the heart and God will not accept anything confessed with the mouth that does not originate from a true and good heart. Here is the real issue and dilemma for adisciplelearner. The unregenerate man does not possess such a heart (Eph. 4:18). The very words of promise in the New Covenant is that God must first give a new heart and new spirit as the "cause" producing sincere and truthful obedience:

Ezek. 36: 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The unregenerate heart is described as in "darkness" (Eph. 4:18) and at "enmity" with God and in rebellion against God's laws (Rom. 8:7).

However, Romans 10:10 says that it is "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness." If regeneration occurs in baptism as adisciplelearner demands then the candidates for baptism are unrepentant, unbelieving, god hating, rebellious peole still without understanding and in spiritual darkness of heart (Eph. 4:18).

John the Baptist could not possibly demand "fruits meet for repentance" from unregenerate people nor could he withhold baptism from such IF true gospel repentance and faith along with regeneration occurred only IN baptism.

Finally, although we have challenged adisciplelearner over and over and over repeatedly to present just ONE BIBLICAL TEXT or EXAMPLE where gospel repentance and faith did not precede baptism, he has not been able to meet this challenge. However, his theory demands that such examples and texts should be the norm.

We can only conclude that his interpretation is an obvious perversion of the scriptures that is in direct opposition to EVERY Biblical example and EVERY Biblical precept in regard to gospel repentance and faith in relationship to baptism.