Open View of God

[Don]

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

"I would think that especially all Bible believing people would see the truth of the OV when freed from preconceptions."

?????

What kind of cheap, demeaning, school-yard challenging tactic is that ?!?

Are you an Enyartite? Because your defense of the Open View, and statements like that one, tell me you just might be....

Let me hit you with a similar statement: "I would think that especially all Bible-believing people would see the falsity of the OV when freed from preconceptions."

Yeesh, Keith; you seem to be smarter than resorting to childish tactics; it's time to put those tactics away....

----------

As for your response concerning the 11,000 verses, here's an easier one for you: Post it to a web site. There are plenty of free web site places out there that you could post it to, and then it would be there like, forever, dude, for people to peruse at their leisure.

 

[keith]

I'm justing saying what I think and found beneficial to my Christian life. It is not a cheap shot (just different).

 

[Don]

What you're implying is that anyone who disagrees with you is not "bible believing."

That, my friend, constitutes a cheap shot....

 

[keith]

Here is a good and active site by Dr. Greg Boyd that defends the Open View. http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/Custom/4/Documents/frontpage.html

When I can figure out how to attach a file to this I will add about a 20 page list of passages that both support and undermine the OV by Dr. Gordon Olson.

 

[Chick Daniels]

Keith,

It is obvious to all that there are passages that show God "changing His mind" and "being surprised" but these prove nothing to the discussion at hand. God in His perfect will was never going to destroy Ninevah--even though when he called Jonah, He presented Himself as though he was going to. Jonah was going to be the predetermined (and unwilling) agent used to bring about a condition whereby God would not destroy the city. He did't "change His mind," rather He stopped presenting Himself as though He was going to destroy it. This presentation was for the benefit of humans dwelling in the realm of space and time. It was a presented potential, that in fact was never God's purposed will.

God can also present Himself to us as being "surprised" for His own sovereign purposes. It does not mean that He couldn't have known and couldn't have determined what would happen.

Chick

 

[keith]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chick Daniels:
Keith,


It is obvious to all that there are passages that show God "changing His mind" and "being surprised" but these prove nothing to the discussion at hand. God in His perfect will was never going to destroy Ninevah--even though when he called Jonah, He presented Himself as though he was going to. Jonah was going to be the predetermined (and unwilling) agent used to bring about a condition whereby God would not destroy the city. He did't "change His mind," rather He stopped presenting Himself as though He was going to destroy it. This presentation was for the benefit of humans dwelling in the realm of space and time. It was a presented potential, that in fact was never God's purposed will.


God can also present Himself to us as being "surprised" for His own sovereign purposes. It does not mean that He couldn't have known and couldn't have determined what would happen.


Chick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Interesting. God speaks to people tongue in cheek. Presents Himself as not having certain knowledge (e.g. some event that "surprised" Him) when He did in fact have that knowledge.

So God let the ends (teaching a lesson) justify the means (misleading people by saying His mind had changed). Intersting but unacceptable (to me at least).

 

[Don]

And yet, not a word about implying that those of us who disagree with the Open View are not "bible believing"....

 

[John Wells]

Isaiah 42:9 (NIV)
9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.”

Isaiah 46:9-10 (NIV)
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Isaiah 48:5 (NIV)
5 Therefore I told you these things long ago; before they happened I announced them to you so that you could not say, ‘My idols did them; my wooden image and metal god ordained them.’

Daniel 2:28 (NIV)
28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these:

Matthew 24:36 (NIV)
36 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, a but only the Father.

Acts 15:16-17 (ESV)
16 “ ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things.

Romans 8:29 (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

1 Peter 1:2 (NIV)
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

The OV is a “man centered” theology. The Bible is a “God centered” theology. God is not in reactionary mode to what humans do. He is in control of what humans do! Just because that is incomprehensible to our finite human minds does not make it out to be a problem for God!

[ November 10, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chick Daniels:
Keith,

It is obvious to all that there are passages that show God "changing His mind" and "being surprised" but these prove nothing to the discussion at hand. God in His perfect will was never going to destroy Ninevah--even though when he called Jonah, He presented Himself as though he was going to. Jonah was going to be the predetermined (and unwilling) agent used to bring about a condition whereby God would not destroy the city. He did't "change His mind," rather He stopped presenting Himself as though He was going to destroy it. This presentation was for the benefit of humans dwelling in the realm of space and time. It was a presented potential, that in fact was never God's purposed will.

God can also present Himself to us as being "surprised" for His own sovereign purposes. It does not mean that He couldn't have known and couldn't have determined what would happen.

Chick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chick:

I've got to disagree with you here somewhat. I think we must maintain the difference between God's Sovereign, Decretive will with his permissive, Providential will.

In his decretive will, God has willed and predetermined all things which have ever happened and will ever happen, in order to fulfill his perfect redemptive purpose. In his providential will, he interacts with his creation, allowing for actions and decisions of his creation, and even "changing his mind" due to repentance of a people and of prayer.

The thing that OVs miss is that even the changing of God's mind in providential circumstances has been predetermined in the decretive will of God. How can we explain this? I can't. But it is God's will in his perfection and his pleasure to do so.

See also
Are Their Two Wills of God?

 

[keith]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
And yet, not a word about implying that those of us who disagree with the Open View are not "bible believing"....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don, Ok here's a word. It is hard to get across the emotions when writing to a board such as this.

When I said "I would think that especially all Bible believing people would see the truth of the OV when freed from preconceptions." it was not with anger or aim to accuse but with reflection to the time (circa 1990) I read the Bible thru with a focus on this issue (among others). I found that there was much support (more implicit than explicit but support nontheless for the OV and interpretive means around most of the the support for the CV (Closed View). Not being an inerrantist (or even infallibilist), I'm not troubled by disparate viewpoints in the Bible. So I would think that conservative Christians (especially) would be ready to accept the OV. The OV advocate group I meet with Thursday lunches are actually very Bible believing, right-wing and proud of it.

So I'm sorry if you took it that way with aaarrrggghhh's and all.

If I were to be angry with all CVers, I would be mad at most Christians including my wife, my pastor, my son and our best friends who are PCA Calvinists.

So again I'm sorry if you misread me to think I was calling you names.

 

[Don]

Thank you. As you stated, because we have only the written word, sometimes we have to read over what we've written to ensure that our meaning is getting across.

Many, many times I have re-worded before posting, only to go back and edit after posting, only to go back and apologize anyway.

Someday, we'll figure out how to express emotions in a written way, and it will help alleviate some of these challenges.

 

[Chick Daniels]

Chris, I think that we agree, just that I didn't explain myself very well. Sorry. "thorough" and "concise" are going in opposite directions. I should have opted for thorough.

Best wishes, Chick