Open View of Salvation vs. Predetermination

[Brother Bob]

It is not a slander, it is more of a request. Bob you are not helping matters here. These threads have only so much time to work through various issues due to the limitation of pages that are allowed. You post almost half of the posts. You have not been constructive lately in your approach, but have resorted to petty bickering. I think you have had a chance to say what you want to say, now let some of the others on here have a chance to express themselves because they are getting pushed aside due to your constant belligerence. Revmitchell had some good points I am sure that he was going to try and make, bound wants to contribute, but they cannot in the climate you are creating which is hostile and mind numbing. If you want to discuss Calvinism, post a thread and invite people into your world Bob, but please stay clear of my new thread out of respect for what others may want to have the chance to say but are unable to due your participation. The first thread I started got locked and this one will soon no doubt, and yet the overwhelming majority of interesting comments are lost in the aftermath of hurricane Bob!

I don't know where you were educated but it takes at least 2 to have a disagreement. In this case it me against the Calvinist. What do you think predestination the name of your thread is if not Calvinism.

I just found out that after making fun of my response to 2 Corith 5:15 that Wesley believed the same thing I do and posted. So, you need to include his name also when making fun. The real reason you don't want me around is because you can't use Scriptures and disprove me. If you had the Scriptures it would be a easy thing to out do me but you just do not have them.
You place the blame on me along with others but it was Joseph who took over this thread but I won't bother you little thread, if you can't stand the hard questions.

I think you showed just how childish you are by starting a thread like you did. No wonder you rather deal with kids instead of grownups.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Joseph Botwinick to defend Calvin's right to murder people that didn't agree with him. Absolutely comparing Calvin to God, as well as likening burning innocent people at the stake to God's righteous judgement.

Then it turned into....

Just read through it, use your head, you'll figure it out. Unless you are full of pride and stubborn.

Yes, Jesus is God. Duh.

As it turns out Calvin did not have the power to put someone to death. You claim murder...if it was murder, they would have locked him up for murder. as it turns out..Calvin never used a gun....or match making him the killer. but again as it turns out the state had laws that meant those that broke the law in some areas, would be put to death. Did Calvin point out to the state that somone had broke the Law? yes Did he kil them? NO. Did he murder them? no.

Did calvin speak on that ones behalf as to not have him burn? Yes. Clavin had not the power to stop it.

Lets review the facts....

Calvin did not murder
The state put those that had broke the law to death after they were found guilty.

but really this whole thing has nothing to do with Calvinism. Calvin murdered comes up about ever other mouth in order to change the subject. The doctrines are not about a man...but about Salvation by God. Tiis the doctrines of Grace. Even with the facts well known...this will come up again, as if it mattered. If Calvin had murdered...yet told the truth...do I dismiss the truth because Calvin sinned? I think not.

If...Calvin was one that never murdered..and his doctrine was wogwash...do I take his wogwash because he never murdered? Get real.

I'll give it 6o days..and we will see this same wogwash again.

 

[Blammo]

As it turns out Calvin did not have the power to put someone to death. You claim murder...if it was murder, they would have locked him up for murder. as it turns out..Calvin never used a gun....or match making him the killer. but again as it turns out the state had laws that meant those that broke the law in some areas, would be put to death. Did Calvin point out to the state that somone had broke the Law? yes Did he kil them? NO. Did he murder them? no.

Did calvin speak on that ones behalf as to not have him burn? Yes. Clavin had not the power to stop it.

Lets review the facts....

Calvin did not murder
The state put those that had broke the law to death after they were found guilty.

but really this whole thing has nothing to do with Calvinism. Calvin murdered comes up about ever other mouth in order to change the subject. The doctrines are not about a man...but about Salvation by God. Tiis the doctrines of Grace. Even with the facts well known...this will come up again, as if it mattered. If Calvin had murdered...yet told the truth...do I dismiss the truth because Calvin sinned? I think not.

If...Calvin was one that never murdered..and his doctrine was wogwash...do I take his wogwash because he never murdered? Get real.

I'll give it 6o days..and we will see this same wogwash again.

That's fine, James, I'll accept that. But, read my post again and get the point. The point was not whether or not Calvin was a murderer. Okay?

 

[Blammo]

Now back to the topic:

"Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil," Prov. 16:4.

This verse proves God made the wicked, not that He made them wicked.

"For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished," Rev. 17:17.

This verse proves God is sovereign whether we believe or not.

We also see "vessels of wrath" which by the Lord were "fitted unto destruction," were "endured with much long suffering" in order that He might "show His wrath, and make His power known"; and with these are contrasted the "vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory" in order "that He might make known the riches of His glory" upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

Let's read the verse without the your words added:

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

And add:

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Chapter 9 of Romans seems to be saying, yet again, Israel has rebelled against Christ, allowing the Gentiles in, and everyone, both Jew and Gentile, must put their faith in Christ if they wish to be saved.

"Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you," Acts 13:41.

Don't forget the three verses prior to that one:

Acts 13:38-40 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

"For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them," John 12:39, 40.

Is this not simply God exercising His sovereignty to accomplish His plan of salvation for all mankind? In other words, if this had not been done, the Jews would have accepted Christ as their Messiah, He would not have died on the cross, and the Gentiles would remain unsaved.

"For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind," John 9:39.

This seems to be speaking of pride and humility. Those who "already know everything" will be blind to the truth, those who are open to the truth will see it.

"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes," Matt. 11:25.

Same as the last answer. Those who "already know everything" will be blind to the truth, those who are open to the truth will see it.

"But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day," Deut. 2:30.

If men are rebellious toward God, He will allow them to continue in their wickedness, and use them to accomplish His purpose. (God is sovereign.)

"For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses." Joshua 11:20.

See last comment.

"For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth," Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

See last comment.

 

[J.D.]

This verse proves God is sovereign whether we believe or not.

Interesting admition. Why didn't you just stop there?

 

[Brother Bob]

It is not a slander, it is more of a request. Bob you are not helping matters here. These threads have only so much time to work through various issues due to the limitation of pages that are allowed. You post almost half of the posts. You have not been constructive lately in your approach, but have resorted to petty bickering. I think you have had a chance to say what you want to say, now let some of the others on here have a chance to express themselves because they are getting pushed aside due to your constant belligerence. Revmitchell had some good points I am sure that he was going to try and make, bound wants to contribute, but they cannot in the climate you are creating which is hostile and mind numbing. If you want to discuss Calvinism, post a thread and invite people into your world Bob, but please stay clear of my new thread out of respect for what others may want to have the chance to say but are unable to due your participation. The first thread I started got locked and this one will soon no doubt, and yet the overwhelming majority of interesting comments are lost in the aftermath of hurricane Bob!

I don't think webdog, bound, blammo or saturneptune wants me to leave. I don't know anything about Rev Mitchell but don't know why he either would have a reason for wanting me to leave. Now you and James I understand because your scriptures won't stand up to scrutiny but fall flat on their face. If I thought the others wanted me to leave, I would go.:wavey:

 

[Blammo]

Interesting admition. Why didn't you just stop there?

I believe I have admitted this before, (that God is sovereign). I don't believe the free-will of man is able to overcome sovereignty of God. Men make choices, those choices have consequences. If a man does not want to get hit by a car, it does not mean he won't get hit by a car, it just means he didn't want to. If he chooses to stand in the middle of the road, he may be disappointed real soon.

 

[LeBuick]

LeBuick;
You surprise me. Maybe you would like to give me Scriptures where Jesus Killed anyone?

The contrary Bob, I was saying that Christ role in the Godhead is salvation, not death.

The truth is, God does not have to kill anyone. God is life. One does not die because God "killed" them. One chooses not to live by accepting his salvation. It is free you know.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sure glad to see another one of God's ministers stand up and be counted.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Blammo,

Let's take the passages that are clearcut:

Proverbs 16:4 literally says that God made everything for its own end and then it gives an illustration of how that works even in what may otherwise be a shocking way. Whereas even wicked are created for a purpose. The point is that God has a predetermination in working out his will through creation.

Rev. 17:17 says that God put in their heart to do his mind. This says more than you want to indicate.

Duet. 2:30 states plainly that God hardened his spirit and it goes on to elaborate that God made his heart obstinate.

and Josh. 11:20 plainly states that God hardened the heart.

And what explanation do you offer to Duet. 2:30 and Josh. 11:20?

If men are rebellious toward God, He will allow them to continue in their wickedness, and use them to accomplish His purpose. (God is sovereign.)

Your answer hardly deals with the substance of what is plainly written. It does not say that God in his infinite wisdom found a real hard case and cleverly worked his ill-tempered nature into an overall divine plan.

It more specially states that God caused someones heart to harden.

Now this last comment is so very telling in our discussions. When presented with the plain reading of a passage you change the meaning to fit your system. In biblical studies we call that eisogesis or reading into the text what you want it to say.

 

[npetreley]

Bob, I'll make a rare exception and respond to one of your posts.

First, I don't want you to leave.

Second, consider the irony of your position (although I'm sure you won't agree with me, so it will be hard if not impossible for you to consider it, but I'll do it for the exercise anyway).

As far as I can tell, you promote the idea that man has within him the ability:

1. To recognize his own sin
2. To repent of his sin
3. To confess his sin and ask forgiveness

Now, you accused Joseph of calling Jesus a murderer when this is plainly not the case. Joseph did no such thing. Why is it that you seem to lack the ability:

1. To recognize your sin (you lied)
2. To repent of it (to decide not to lie)
3. To confess that you lied and ask Joseph for forgiveness

??

As I said, given your condition, these are just rhetorical questions because I don't think you'll recognize that you lied (or if you recognize it, you won't admit it), I don't think you're willing to repent of it, and I don't think you're willing to confess it and ask for forgiveness. Prove me wrong.

Okay, I'm back to not responding to your posts.

​

 

[Blammo]

Blammo,

Let's take the passages that are clearcut:

Proverbs 16:4 literally says that God made everything for its own end and then it gives an illustration of how that works even in what may otherwise be a shocking way. Whereas even wicked are created for a purpose. The point is that God has a predetermination in working out his will through creation.

So where is our disagreement? Were we not all wicked before we were saved. Were you created righteous? Did God make you wicked before you were saved? I know it is God that makes us righteous when we are saved, though it is not our righteousness, but His. The point is, they were made by God, not made wicked by God.

Rev. 17:17 says that God put in their heart to do his mind. This says more than you want to indicate.

No sir, I fully acknowledge what the verse says. Even though these guys had already rejected God, He is still able to use them to accomplish what He will. It proves the sovereignty of God, while not disproving the choice of man.

Duet. 2:30 states plainly that God hardened his spirit and it goes on to elaborate that God made his heart obstinate.

and Josh. 11:20 plainly states that God hardened the heart.

I'm not denying the fact that God hardens their hearts, I'm just saying, God did not make them wicked, he just kept them that way, at least long enough to use them for His purpose.

Now this last comment is so very telling in our discussions. When presented with the plain reading of a passage you change the meaning to fit your system. In biblical studies we call that eisogesis or reading into the text what you want it to say.

I would like to discuss this without being insulted. I could say the same thing about you. See above. (Scripture references followed by your own words.)

 

[Brother Bob]

Now, you accused Joseph of calling Jesus a murderer when this is plainly not the case. Joseph did no such thing. Why is it that you seem to lack the ability:

I have no idea why I am trying to post to you npet; your mind can't absorb it. But Joseph was give ample opportunities to withdraw his statement and He refused. Anyone can start on Page 13 and read forward and make their own judgement but judgement is too much for you. Your brain would explode. Here are just some of Joseph's post and how crazy for the likes of you to turn it around.

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Never, but Joseph;
You made a bad mistake comparing John Calvin with God. Just admit it and let it go man.

I quoted more of that statement than I meant to. I was not comparing Calvin with God, but correcting your theological error that you never saw Jesus going around killing anyone.

Joseph Botwinick
__________________
Joseph Botwinick's Blog

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

We haven't got there yet and Hello James good of you to drop in.

Now, to both of you. If Jesus killed anyone he would not have been able to offer a perfect sacrifice would He or are you saying

He could kill and still offer the perferct sacrifice for our sins. waiting for you answer. It will be interesting.

no...if he murdered any one...he would not have been the perfect sacrifice.


Originally Posted by Brother Bob

We haven't got there yet and Hello James good of you to drop in.

Now, to both of you. If Jesus killed anyone he would not have been able to offer a perfect sacrifice would He or are you saying

He could kill and still offer the perferct sacrifice for our sins. waiting for you answer. It will be interesting.

Joseph Botwinick
Please explain to me why he couldn't offer a perfect sacrifice if he, in his sovereign, holy, and righteous judgment killed

someone. Of course he could. God is holy and just in all his judgments and we have no right to question his holiness, because we don't even come close.

Joseph Botwinick


Brother Bob,

I don't blame you for not wanting to explain your liberal, indefensible heresy.

Joseph Botwinick
__________________
Originally Posted by Brother Bob

If it is liberal to not believe that Jesus is a murderer then bring it on Hillary.


Yep. It is liberal heresy. Do you read much Spong?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[npetreley]

Even a 5 year old can see that Joseph did not call Jesus a murderer.

 

[Brother Bob]

Even a 5 year old can see that Joseph did not call Jesus a murderer.

You say stuff that even Joseph don't say. The big question is that Joseph said that Jesus killed people. Later He changed it to for Holy reasons but even that is not true. Jesus killed no one. I asked at the Gymn today and several denominations are there and no one had ever heard of such a thing and said whoever said it, was crazy.
I did a world wide net search and among probably billions of hits, not one said "Jesus killed", not even the Jews or muslims. All over the world I had to come to this Board of BB to find someone who said that Jesus killed people. What is amazing, there were people with little intelligence around him that took up for him. Why don't you stand on the truth side for once regardless of personalities around you. You don't have to prove to anyone that you don't like me, everyone knows it.


Joseph said this:
If it is liberal to not believe that Jesus is a murderer then bring it on Hillary.


Yep. It is liberal heresy. Do you read much Spong?

I quoted more of that statement than I meant to. I was not comparing Calvin with God, but correcting your theological error that you never saw Jesus going around killing anyone. (This is what you are upholding, read it close please, anyone can make a mistake npet


Joseph Botwinick

 

[Blammo]

Even a 5 year old can see that Joseph did not call Jesus a murderer.

Defending the murder, which John Calvin may or may not have committed, by saying Jesus killed people too, which He did not, (God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did), is like calling Jesus a murderer. That is clear.

I don't believe Joseph thinks Jesus is a murderer.
I don't believe Brother Bob denies the deity of Christ.

Now we can move on?

 

[Brother Bob]

Someone tell me who Jesus Killed? If you believe that. I know Jesus was deity but when He died our God did not die. Yours may have but mine didn't.

 

[DHK]

Let's just close this thread instead. There are too many accusations being thrown around. Some people need to tone down their rhetoric.
DHK