Featured Openness View of Reality

Ares, what would the point of the contingent declarations be. They seem to be purely hypothetical if you are saying that God knows what you will do. In other words there is no real "if". In what sense can there truly be any contingency at all. Not one way for God and options for me, since His knowledge trumps mine.:love2:

 

Perhaps so that God can glorify Himself in the revelation of His moral will in both the praise of His glorious grace on the vessels of mercy and in the praise of His glorious justice on the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?

 

Is that a serious reply?

 

I believe it is a Biblical reply according to Romans 9:21-23, Ephesians 1:5-7, and 1 Peter 2:9 among others.

 

Alright, then the contingent declarations are reduced to nonsense and thus should be discarded.

 

That's a good answer, IMO, as it rests solely on the glory and sovereignty of God...as all things should.

 

Hyper-Calvinists claim God is the author of sin because He predestines sin. They are closed theists. Aresman is a closed theist.

He states if God knows the future, it is predestined.

Therefore God knows we will sin.

Therefore God predestines our sin.

This is not maintream Calvinism or Arminianism.

 

All Arminians and many Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree because God does not predesitine us to the sins we commit volitionally.
We make our autonomous choice to sin or seek God or respond to the conditional promises of God.

Does limited open theism require that God cannot know the future exhaustive? Many Arminians will assert they believe God can know the future yet this does not predestine it. So anyone willing to put their faith in this mystery, can be an open theist and a total omniscience kind of guy. There is also an alternate, biblically based view that is banned from this forum.

 

Acts 27 records an instance where God revealed that no one would perish in a ship. After that, Paul instructed the people there what to do so that they would not perish. The people had to heed Paul's words YET, God Himself said that no one would die!

Act 27:21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
Act 27:22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
Act 27:23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
Act 27:24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
Act 27:25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

YET...

Act 27:26 Howbeit we must be cast upon a certain island.
Act 27:27 But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;
Act 27:28 And sounded, and found it twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found it fifteen fathoms.
Act 27:29 Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.
Act 27: 30And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship,
Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.
Act 27:32 Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off.
Act 27:33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing.
Act 27:34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
Act 27:35 And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat.
Act 27:36 Then were they all of good cheer, and they also took some meat.

Compatibilism at its finest!

 

1. You re-defining Hyper-calvinism from its historical context.

2. I don't know that you are correct to say that those positions historically labeled by their opponents as Hyper-cals claim God is the author of sin. I have not heard any claim such.

3. I think you would find that MOST mainstream calvinists would agree that God both foreknows and Foreordains sin for his own higher purposes. (you have claimed something like this yourself, but only as it applies to certain sins that therefore are not liable to punishment.)

 

No contingent declaration from God in those verses. I think His contingent declarations are truly that. You do not. No worries. :love2:

 

Previous quotes from Van, to substantiate my last post...

 

Pitchback

Please provide a published definition of Hyper-Calvinist that does not support exhaustive determinism. Your false charge against me is just shuck and jive.

It does not matter whether you have heard the claim, only that it is true.

Please provide the quote of me claiming God predestines all or volitional sin. What we were addressing was Judas fulfilling prophecy in his betrayal of Jesus, (and Peter's denials) and saying God predestined those sins. In other words, an exception which you now seem to want to misrepresent as the rule. Fiddlesticks. Each person who faces punishment for his or her misdeeds in the afterlife is being punished for volitional sins, ones where they were not compelled by God to do.

Check out the very first line item on this list of Hyper beliefs:

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/HyperCalvinism/

 

1. I had not seen this list. You may be right. I don't know. When the debate came up around 200 years ago, The primary Hyper-cal distinction was opposition to missions and evangelism. My point is simply that there ARE some mainstream calvinists (non-hyper) That would affirm that God Ordained that there would be sin, while not being the author of it, and that in itself is not enough to designate someone as Hyper.

2. In the quotes I provided, I did not realize you were not speaking of "volitional" sin. Are you saying Peter and Judas did not make a choice to do those sins? I was simply pointing out that you yourself believe God predestines some sins.

 

I may be right? I am right and you were wrong. Truth matters

And you did not realize I was talking about volitional sin? If you were predestined to betray Jesus because you have been chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, are you sinning by choice alone, or can you call something a choice when no other action is possible. You see, it does not matter whether or not you had the sin in your heart before you were chosen, once chosen to fulfill a prophecy, the choice is null and void.

As far as mainstream Calvinists who claim God predestines sin but is not the author of sin, all they do is try to hide the reality behind a lot of mumbo jumbo. They use words like secondary causes, but if a secondary cause is predestined by God, then God is the author of sin.
Others use compatibilism, where they correctly claim we choose what we desire at that moment, and then wrongly claim we can only desire sin at every moment. If true, then our fallen condition, only desiring sin at every moment was caused by God, making God, after you peel the onion of deception the author of sin.

 

A quick and simple description of Hyper-Calvinists and Mainstream Calvinists is the following:

Hyper-Calvinists are 5 point Calvinists who accept the logical consequences of their theology. Mainsteam Calvinists are 5 point Calvinists who deny the logical consequences of their theology.

Thus the distinctives: Hypers say no need to evangelize, no action of anyone will alter the predestined outcome of our lives. Mainliners say we should evangelize because God commanded it, even though it will not alter the predestined outcome of our lives. Or Hypers say God is the author of sin because everything is predestined, but Mainlines say God is not the author of sin, even though He predestined sin.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

The reality is all Arminians and many Calvinists (non-Hypers) are open theists to a limited degree in that they believe we sin by our autonomous choice and not by the compulsion of predestined sin. Thus everything is not predestined, making those that hold the mainstream Calvinist view open theists to a limited degree. They will deny it, because they deny the logical consequences of their theology.

 

Like Cassius some of you here think too much; "such men are dangerous," especially on a day before the weekend!