"ordained to eternal life" - retrospective anachronistic nuance

[Ben1445]

How were you able to believe and have faith to be saved and others were not?

You’re the one that says they’re not. Inability is your doctrine. Ability through Christ is true doctrine. A universal call is the great commission. Disobedience is judged. Disobedience is not inability.

 

[Ben1445]

Hi Ben,
First I want to thank you. You are the one who showed me how to quote and post. Ha ha I will remember you because of that.

Absolutely! Happy to be helpful.

My Comment: This is a good point.

Christ instituted the sacrament

The American Heritage Dictionary defines sacrament as

1. A rite believed to be a means of or visible form of grace, especially.

The things we do are not the means of grace.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

in Matt 3:16: And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
So when Jesus was baptized, the heavens were opened to us and the Spirit came down. The Spirit is present at baptism.

Webster defined the word sacrament as binding an oath.

Hebrews 6:17-20
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Also, Baptism is tied to Christ’s death:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side: and immediately there came out blood and water.

Notice the “water”. We say this spiritually ties Christ’s sacrifice on the cross to baptism.

In the figure or example, yes.
It is the outward acknowledgment and obedience to the covenant that God has made with those who trust Him.

Baptism is tied to the washing away of sins:

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.
Acts 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When you take aspirin for a headache, is it because you have a headache or want a headache.
When you get baptized, it is because Christ has taken care of salvation with His blood. It is not because we gain anything by it.
I have a diploma for my education. I don’t have an education because of it for my diploma.

My Comment: Did the apostles make mistakes on doctrine? They were men.

I was speaking specifically of the counsels of the later years, not of the apostles. (The real biblical apostles who fill the criteria)

Acts 1:21-22
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Christ gives the power to men. Here’s an example:
Matt 16:15-17 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

Of course, this is the famous quote from Peter and in the next verse Christ makes him the rock.

Here is another point where we hav different perspectives and I cannot concede the point.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus didn’t say that Peter was the rock. He called him a stone. That is the meaning of Peter’s name. Similar to Petra, the city built in the rocks, but not. Peter is a “petros,” a piece of rock, but Christ built His church on the Petra, the large rock.

Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Acts 4:11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Peter is a small part. Jesus is the main part. He deserves the preeminence.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Revelation about Christ was revealed to him. To those in true authority and under certain conditions, cannot err.

So take Peter and Paul’s word for it.
The church is built on Christ and not Peter.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

This is a charism God has given to the church in order to maintain unity and so people know rightly know how to be saved.

Romans 4:16-25
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: -- He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

My Comment: We say Christ was baptized “to show us the way” which is a paraphrase of Matt 3:15 …For so it becometh us to fulfil all justice”.

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We say it that way because Christ didn’t need to be baptized. He had no sin. You had to pass through the waters at the Jordan to enter the promised land (Jos 3:14-16). Mystically this means that you have to pass through the waters of baptism to enter eternal life. You say “Jesus was not baptized until He entered His ministry”. Jesus is both priest and victim (John 1:29). His ministry was to die for our sins so this washing signified Jesus as a priest washing to prepare to offer the sacrifice. It also signified Jesus as the victim (Lamb) being washed in preparation for His death (Rom 6:3-4).

You can see the pictures but it appears that you place too much significance on the reenactment of the pictures.

 

[Ben1445]

My Comment: It is what we call the “instrumental cause”.

Faith is the instrumental cause. See Romans chapter 4. Baptism is the answer of a clear conscience.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

If a person is not washed before baptism, it is impossible for baptism to be an answer from a good conscience. It would have to be the answer of a guilty conscience waiting to be cleansed.

There is nothing magic about the water.

Amen to that!

That’s what 1 Pet 3:21 means when it says “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”. It’s just that, at the point that you do it (that you baptize), God washes away our sins (Acts 22:16). Like you say, think about the alternative: if you are regenerated out of the blue, how do you really know?

I am not of the camp that says that God regenerates people by divine determinism and damns others by willful neglect.

Belief is not out of the blue. It is also not as weak a thing as what people imagine it to be.
Faith can move mountains. It is not some vague thing.

Protestantism has tried to tie it to hearing preaching (Rom 10:17) to regeneration but it doesn’t work.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Note it doesn’t say without baptism.

Since it doesn’t work, people then begin looking for “evidence” of a person’s conversion. Things like that.

The searching out and weeding out is not our job. Jesus said let the tares grow with the wheat. But you cannot hide forever the lost person with the saved. The wheat will eventually bring forth fruit. The tares could never unless like Scripture says, they are made new creations.

When is a goat a sheep?
When he is made a new creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


None of this born a sheep and born a goat malarkey.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

We are all human beings like sheep. We are not sheep. We are mankind, made in the image of God. We are like sheep in that we have wandered.
Christ, the Good Shepherd gave his life for the sheep.
And the life of the flesh is in the blood, not the baptism.

 

[Ben1445]

Sorry. I don’t think I could have been more concise.
The good news is I’m not selling this book.

Also it appears we are slightly off topic and I’m sorry for that.
The content is still relevant. Probably just not the original intent. (Par for the course)

 

[Silverhair]

Doesnt matter.

You want to call me an Arminian that's fine with me. From what I have seen of their views they trust the word of God which is what I do.

So basically the difference as I see it is that Calvinists follow a manmade theology where myself and Arminians follow the word of God.

 

[LaGrange]

The American Heritage Dictionary defines sacrament as

1. A rite believed to be a means of or visible form of grace, especially.

The things we do are not the means of grace.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

My Comment: A sacrament is not something “we” are doing. That’s the point. It is something “God” is doing. Your verses are some of the same verses we use to prove baptism, especially Titus 3:5. You don’t see baptism in “by the washing of regeneration”?
Here’s the definition of a sacrament from memory: A sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ that gives grace.
I wouldn’t go by Webster’s.

Webster defined the word sacrament as binding an oath.

Hebrews 6:17-20
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

My Comment: I’m not sure what you mean.

In the figure or example, yes.
It is the outward acknowledgment and obedience to the covenant that God has made with those who trust Him.

This was you commenting on my quote about John 19:34.

My Comment: You don’t see this because of my two reasons at the end of the post.

When you take aspirin for a headache, is it because you have a headache or want a headache.
When you get baptized, it is because Christ has taken care of salvation with His blood. It is not because we gain anything by it.
I have a diploma for my education. I don’t have an education because of it for my diploma.

My Comment: Ben, this is a misunderstanding. Not a good analogy of the diploma. You’re saying the “education” is inside you and baptism is the “diploma” outside you. We would say Baptism is both the diploma (outward sign) and education (inwardly gives grace).

I was speaking specifically of the counsels of the later years, not of the apostles. (The real biblical apostles who fill the criteria)

Acts 1:21-22
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

My Comment: I was wondering why you brought that up. What I was showing in another post was proof that cooperative grace was taught in the early chuch. I quoted Augustine (post #87).

Here is another point where we hav different perspectives and I cannot concede the point.

Then you list a few verses.

My Comment: This is the usual response we get. Well, right now I’m not going to answer this because I got on this particular forum to discuss the Calvinist, Arminian and Catholic views of Soteriology. I could answer but I don’t want to go down a long trail on authority. I understand that all these doctrines fit together and it’s easy to to get off the main subject and I know you didn’t mean to do that.

So take Peter and Paul’s word for it.
The church is built on Christ and not Peter.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

My Comment: same as above.

 

[LaGrange]

Continued

Ben, I’m not going to answer your answers to these post because I think it is important for me to work on a thread I want to do. I am going to attempt to do the thread anyway. I will read your responses to these posts. The thread I'm want to do will be about what I call the “Big Picture”. I just want you to know that I really enjoy these exchanges. We’ll talk again. Often I hope!

Romans 4:16-25
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: -- He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

My Comment: Instead of just quoting scripture, you need to explain exactly what you are trying to get across. We use the exact same scriptures. I’m trying to guess what you are trying to say. I guess you are saying “Faith alone” saves or something like that.

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

My Comment: ??? There’s no explanation.

You can see the pictures but it appears that you place too much significance on the reenactment of the pictures.

You were commenting on my mentioning of Joshua 3:14-16.

My Comment: You seem to use only the literal method only when it comes to scripture. See my note below.


THESE ARE MY TWO REASONS ON WHY YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND BAPTISM

After reading your whole post, I see two problems (I use the formal terms in case you may want to look these up):

1. Hermeneutics
2. Ex opere operato (baptism) vs ex opere operantis (Faith - disposition)

1. Hermeneutics - there are many ways to interpret scripture. Here are some ways of interpretation:

Key Methods of Protestant Biblical Interpretation:

Literal-Grammatical-Historical Method
Scripture Interprets Scripture (Analogy of Faith)
Christ-Centered (Christocentric) Approach
Redemptive-Historical Approach
Canonical Approach
Devotional/Meditative (Lectio Divina)
Typological Interpretation

Key Methods of Catholic Biblical Interpretation:
Literal
Allegorical (Typological)
Tropological (Moral sense)
Anagogical Sense

We use most of the others as well

The method of interpretation I was using with you when I said, Joshua crossing of the Jordan into the promised land was figurative of Christ’s baptism in the Jordan and entering into eternal life, was the allegorical or typological method. Protestant theologians use it too. It’s interpreting historical things in a spiritual way. I will use it a lot when I talk about Abraham.

2. Ex opere operato (baptism) vs ex opere operantis (Faith - disposition)

In Baptism, God works through the sacrament and causes full regeneration.

Aquinas describes ex opera operato on how baptism works:
“Moreover Baptism confers justification in virtue of the deed (ex opere operato) which is not man’s deed but God’s…”
(STh., Supplementum q.14 a.3 ad 2)

THIS IS THE MAIN THING

Full Regeneration comes from God through baptism to you.
Full Regeneration does not start inside you and end with baptism.

Here’s an example of why regeneration doesn’t start inside you and end with baptism:

Arminian - this is a critique of the Arminian view

Let’s say an unbeliever walks into an Arminian church
Someone gives him a Bible
He begins listenening to the preacher
He starts reasoning through each verse
Then one day he starts to read between the lines of scripture and he realizes God is working in him
It begins to change his mind
It begins to change his life
He may get emotional
He may begin to pray
Etc….

I’m going to stop there. Well guess what? He’s still not a Christian yet! This is what the Calvinists are trying to tell the Arminians. Full regeneration is instantaneous, not gradual. So how are you going to get this instantaneous full regeneration? Either you get it out of the blue, like the calvinists want to say, or through baptism. We say God gave us baptism so we would know absolutely when we were fully regenerated. Baptism is a one-time thing. Full regeneration does not start inside you. Full Regeneration starts with baptism and comes to you.

 

[LaGrange]

Hi Ben,
I missed this one!

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Note it doesn’t say without baptism.

Faith is an effect of Baptism

Follow this logic:

Faith comes from full regeneration
full regeneration comes from baptism
therefore,
Faith comes from baptism

Faith is an effect of full regeneration
Faith is not a cause of full regeneration

 

[LaGrange]

Absolutely! Happy to be helpful.

Hi Ben,

One more thing. This might help. Here are the 5 Causes:

Justification - Causes

Effecient Cause - Merciful God
Instrumental Cause - Baptism - the Sacrament of Faith
Formal Cause - Justification (Sanctifying Grace) - Justice of God - not that by which He himself is just, but that by which He maketh us just (Rom 4:23)
Final Cause - Glory of God, Eternal Life
Meritorious Cause - Jesus Christ who merited Justification by His Passion on the wood of the cross and made Satisfaction
(Council of Trent, Session VI, on Justification, Ch VII)

When we are baptized, all of these are present at the same time. It’s simultaneous.