Order of salvation...

[MB]

The purpose of my response is to show the method (myself included) to best facilitate the hope that God will grant repentance after being instructed in the truth.

Paul wrote;
1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

If a man has hope, will he not be saved because of the faithfulness of God?
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

The instructor must be the Lord's servant; The quality of the his/her character and spirituality is the key.

HankD

Please explain with scripture the needed quality of Character and spirituality? What type of these two things is so necessary? Isn't it said that rocks would cry out?
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
ia

 

[HankD]

Dear MB,
I'm not sure what else to do brother but to simply point out again what I believe the passage in 2 Timothy 2 is saying.

Perhaps my choice of words was not the best.

I'll put it another way.

First, it is a given that God is the only one who can be called "good".

There is a Scripture passage however that states a certain man was a "good" man (Barnabas) with a reason following:

Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

He was indwelt by the Holy Ghost who controlled him.

When one is controlled by the Spirit of God, walking in the Spirit and led of the Spirit then the fruit of the Spirit normally manifests itself in that person's life:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So when I say "spirituality" then this is what I mean from the Scriptures, one who is controlled by the Spirit of God with the fruit of the Spirit evident.

OK, notice again Paul's admonishment to the "servant of the Lord":

2 Timothy 2
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

These qualities are evidence of the fruit of the Spirit and they directly affect the character of the individual doing the instructing.
They are required qualities, also this passage states: the servant of the Lord must not strive.

Paul also recoginzing that a person should be "spiritual" in order to do certain works of the Lord:

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Why then do we strive? Because there is another controlling entity; the flesh:

Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Paul says "YE" in verse 16 (Christians). It is possible therefore for a Christian to fulfil the lust of the flesh or Paul would not be telling us how to avoid it.

Notice some of the works of the flesh: variance, emulations, wrath, strife, The very ones which are prevalent in the church today.

So, the servant of the Lord must avoid strife by being filled with the Spirit and demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit, evidenced by using gentleness and meekness when we deal with those who have gone astray.

No one can fake the fruit of the Spirit. It is obvious to all who is walking in the Spirit and who is not by their character and demeanor.

Further we are given this admonishment:

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Being human, even as Christians we all fail to one degree or another in this endeavor. But when we fall/fail/sin, we should acknowledge the failure get up and put off those things which are behind while looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith for maturity.

How do we "crucify" or "mortify" the flesh and its evil deeds of malice, guile, etc?

Actually it is normal growth process by the affect of the Word upon our human soul/spirit.

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

However, we very often stand in the way, neglect the Word and/or do not yield to the Spirit.

We must recognize that as babes in Christ we still want to live our own life our own way rather than yield ourselves to the will of God:

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

And by beholding the glory of the Lord:

2 Corinthians 3
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

There are other passages but these are just a few that show us how to overcome the flesh through the Spirit by whom we are indwelt.

Bless you brother, I hope I have sufficiently explained the words I chose.

HankD

 

[Winman]

Yes, it is clear we are saved through faith in Christ and not of works, but it is also clear that we as Christians are to turn from sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

A Christian will not lose salvation if they sin, if they did we would all be lost, because we all sin. But a Christian is commanded to turn from sin and live a holy life. If we disobey and live in continuous sin, God will chasten us as children.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[Havensdad]

My personal belief on the order of Salvation...

God does everything. The end.

 

[webdog]

My personal belief on the order of Salvation...

God does everything. The end.

God believes for us?

 

[AresMan]

God believes for us?

God gives us the faith, resulting in our belief.

2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep you from evil.

Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


Not all have faith. Only those whom God gives faith can believe. Those whom God gives faith do believe.

God doesn't believe for you, but He gives you the faith, and you hence believe.

 

[Havensdad]

God believes for us?

Faith is not some done FOR us, but something done TOO us. We are assigned a specific measure of faith.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


Again, "God does everything".

 

[HankD]

Faith is not some done FOR us, but something done TOO us. We are assigned a specific measure of faith.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


Again, "God does everything".

The faith is a gift and must be received by those to whom it is offered.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:​

HankD​

 

[webdog]

Faith is not some done FOR us, but something done TOO us. We are assigned a specific measure of faith.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


Again, "God does everything".

If you cut down a tree with a chainsaw you already own, or I give you a chainsaw to cut it down...who cuts the tree down? The only way it's "God does everything", He must "cut the tree down for us" (also believe for us as well.)

 

[MB]

Hi Hank D;
Thankyou for your explannation. I agree we are to be filled with God's Spirit inorder to teach, but also in every Christian, Christ lives our lives for us as in Galations 2:20
MB

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank D;
Thankyou for your explannation. I agree we are to be filled with God's Spirit inorder to teach, but also in every Christian, Christ lives our lives for us as in Galations 2:20
MB

Thus I believe we are agreed MB.
We (at least I) don't always live up to that standard. That's why we quarrel so much here at the BB.

Although it could and has been much worse.


HankD

 

[AresMan]

If you cut down a tree with a chainsaw you already own, or I give you a chainsaw to cut it down...who cuts the tree down? The only way it's "God does everything", He must "cut the tree down for us" (also believe for us as well.)

It's not that God gives someone faith and that person may or may not "use" it. If God does not give someone the measure of faith, that person will not believe. If God gives someone the measure of faith, that person will believe.

God gets the credit for guaranteeing the result.

 

[Darrenss1]

It's not that God gives someone faith and that person may or may not "use" it. If God does not give someone the measure of faith, that person will not believe. If God gives someone the measure of faith, that person will believe.

God gets the credit for guaranteeing the result.

But then you would have to explain why a person cannot develop faith when they hear the gospel. Why God willing all to be saved purposed to exclude some and decide willy-nilly that some or many or most are not going to be given faith even though they may hear the gospel and preaching of the truth and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

This "passing over" doctrine in reality leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

Darren

 

[Rippon]

Why God willing all to be saved purposed to exclude some and decide willy-nilly that some or many or most are not going to be given faith even though they may hear the gospel and preaching of the truth and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

The Lord does nothing "willy-nilly". It's blasphemous to even think that. Whatever He does is righteous and just. He does things according to His good pleasure.

He has not willed all to be saved. He has willed for His elect alone to be saved -- and all of them shall be.

This "passing over" doctrine in reality leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

The question you should ask yourself is why God has mercied anyone -- not why has He passed over a number and hardened them.

 

[Darrenss1]

The Lord does nothing "willy-nilly". It's blasphemous to even think that. Whatever He does is righteous and just. He does things according to His good pleasure.

IF God is no respecter of person's, all have sinned, none can respond unless they are chosen..etc The selection process for God to save vs not to save comes down to an arbitrary decision IF the Calvinist view is correct. However God wills all men to be saved, God so loved the world, Christ offered Himself for the world..etc Clearly there is no answer to God's selection process from the Calvinist view.

He has not willed all to be saved. He has willed for His elect alone to be saved -- and all of them shall be.

According to what scripture? So God has intentionally decided to pass over multitudes of people without even so much as showing compassion for them?

The question you should ask yourself is why God has mercied anyone -- not why has He passed over a number and hardened them.

That question does not relate to election to eternal life, God has chosen through Christ to show mercy on everyone and anyone. The Calvinist position cannot reconcile God's love for the lost sinners of the world to His election process (regeneration and so forth).

Darren

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From The TNIV

IF God is no respecter of person's,...

You've taken that way out of context. The Lord is not swayed by anything in a person like momere mortals are.

all have sinned, none can respond unless they are chosen..etc

That's right.

The selection process for God to save vs not to save comes down to an arbitrary decision IF the Calvinist view is correct.

Here's where you enter into blasphemy again with your willy-nilly nonsense. The Lord does what He wats and no one can thwart His plans.

However God wills all men to be saved, God so loved the world,

God has willed His elect alone to be saved. His will can't be reversed. God has loved folks from every tribe, nation, and language. The world does not mean every single person head-for-head -- that's universalism.

Clearly there is no answer to God's selection process from the Calvinist view.

I see you aren't familiar with Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thess. 2:13 and 2 Timothy 1:9 for starters.

According to what scripture? So God has intentionally decided to pass over multitudes of people without even so much as showing compassion for them?

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."(Ex. 32:19 and Ro.9:15)

That question does not relate to election to eternal life, God has chosen through Christ to show mercy on everyone and anyone.

'Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Ro. 9:18)

Don't be in the place of the objectors who Paul puts in their place by saying :"But who are you, a mere human being, to talk back to God?"(Ro.9:20a).

 

[Havensdad]

If you cut down a tree with a chainsaw you already own, or I give you a chainsaw to cut it down...who cuts the tree down? The only way it's "God does everything", He must "cut the tree down for us" (also believe for us as well.)

So, you are saying them, that salvation is NOT all of God??

This is a perfect example of the ultimate result of Arminian theology: "I want to add my two cents to my own salvation. God didn't do EVERYTHING."

 

[webdog]

So, you are saying them, that salvation is NOT all of God??

This is a perfect example of the ultimate result of Arminian theology: "I want to add my two cents to my own salvation. God didn't do EVERYTHING."

Who said anything about salvation not being all of God? From the allowance of man to be born, to placing them in the exact location and time that they might seek Him (Acts 17), to the Lord writing His Law on their heart, to creation, to putting the desire to live forever (Ecc. 3:11), to the Holy Spirit's drawing and conviction, to the leading of repentance / faith, to sanctification, to glorification...is ALL of God. Man having faith does NOT affect ANY of God's sovereignty in salvation...that is a non sequitur. I believe all men can accept and reject Him, and I still don't believe "my two cents" contributed to my salvation....quit the strawmen!

 

[Havensdad]

Who said anything about salvation not being all of God? From the allowance of man to be born, to placing them in the exact location and time that they might seek Him (Acts 17), to the Lord writing His Law on their heart, to creation, to putting the desire to live forever (Ecc. 3:11), to the Holy Spirit's drawing and conviction, to the leading of repentance / faith, to sanctification, to glorification...is ALL of God. Man having faith does NOT affect ANY of God's sovereignty in salvation...that is a non sequitur. I believe all men can accept and reject Him, and I still don't believe "my two cents" contributed to my salvation....quit the strawmen!

Not a straw man. You denied, with your OWN WORDS, that salvation is all of God: let me remind you. You said:

"The only way it's "God does everything", He must "cut the tree down for us" (also believe for us as well.)"


If Christ didn't do everything, as you explicitly state above, that means we DID contribute something to our own salvation. Again, not a strawman: you said it, not me.

 

[webdog]

Not a straw man. You denied, with your OWN WORDS, that salvation is all of God: let me remind you. You said:

"The only way it's "God does everything", He must "cut the tree down for us" (also believe for us as well.)"


If Christ didn't do everything, as you explicitly state above, that means we DID contribute something to our own salvation. Again, not a strawman: you said it, not me.

God doesn't believe for us...you believe He does?!? Try using my comments IN CONTEXT next time...