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Ordination of Women
- Thread starter Jude
- Start date
I don't have to ask the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit never goes contrary to His Word. If the Word says:
1Tim.211 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Then that is what I will believe. I am not going to believe someone's opinion who says that the Holy Spirit "gives the spiritual gift to women as well as men," because when it comes to being a pastor that is not true. The Holy Spirit does not lie, or go contrary to the Word of God. God gave the gift of pastoring, preaching, to men. Women may teach (or even preach) to other women. They may have a children's ministry. But to pastor a church--never. God's Word does not change.
DHK
Well now lets all take a look at I Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Look at each verse and the first one is its a man that desires the office of a bishop and he desireth a good work... Nothing about a Woman.
The second verse is even better the bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife... Since a Woman can't fill that role she is not qualified.
Lets skip verse 3 and look at 4... One that ruleth well his own house... Where does it say her own house?... having his children in subjection with all gravity;... where is her?
To top it all off we have the 5th verse... (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)... For if a man... Where's the Woman?... Knows not how to rule his own house... Not her house!... How shall he take care of the church of God!
There are seven references to a bishop being a Man and the Woman is never mentioned. That is Bible and that is sound doctrine but you change what the scriptures NEVER even implied!... Brother Glen
[ June 22, 2002, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Look at each verse and the first one is its a man that desires the office of a bishop and he desireth a good work... Nothing about a Woman.
The second verse is even better the bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife... Since a Woman can't fill that role she is not qualified.
Lets skip verse 3 and look at 4... One that ruleth well his own house... Where does it say her own house?... having his children in subjection with all gravity;... where is her?
To top it all off we have the 5th verse... (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)... For if a man... Where's the Woman?... Knows not how to rule his own house... Not her house!... How shall he take care of the church of God!
There are seven references to a bishop being a Man and the Woman is never mentioned. That is Bible and that is sound doctrine but you change what the scriptures NEVER even implied!... Brother Glen
[ June 22, 2002, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
Originally posted by Jude:
For what's its worth...
I believe that there is no Scriptual warrant for female elders in the Church. Jesus picked men for leadership.
In those days no-one would have listened to women. The culture mandated it.
'In the beginning' men were picked for leadership.
Nature clearly reflects that as well.
How?
Can a woman teach or preach?
Yes - I've seen it in women-only settings.
Probably.
Thanks for saying that.
But an elder, who is the visible 'head' or 'leader' of a local church, who presides over Word and worship and the Lord's Table? I think not.
Why?
On a practical level, I doubt that most women could actually lead and 'grow' a church.
Why?
Men resist female leadership,
Maybe they are sinning in doing so
and in fact, need godly male role models for the same.
Maybe they are 'limiting God' in forcing it to be so.
This being said, I would certainly show respect to any ordained person...and I certainly would not 'spill blood' over this issue.
I'm glad to hear that. Some things are more important even than whether women are rightly appointed church leaders or not...in the big picture...
For what's its worth...
I believe that there is no Scriptual warrant for female elders in the Church. Jesus picked men for leadership.
In those days no-one would have listened to women. The culture mandated it.
'In the beginning' men were picked for leadership.
Nature clearly reflects that as well.
How?
Can a woman teach or preach?
Yes - I've seen it in women-only settings.
Probably.
Thanks for saying that.
But an elder, who is the visible 'head' or 'leader' of a local church, who presides over Word and worship and the Lord's Table? I think not.
Why?
On a practical level, I doubt that most women could actually lead and 'grow' a church.
Why?
Men resist female leadership,
Maybe they are sinning in doing so
and in fact, need godly male role models for the same.
Maybe they are 'limiting God' in forcing it to be so.
This being said, I would certainly show respect to any ordained person...and I certainly would not 'spill blood' over this issue.
I'm glad to hear that. Some things are more important even than whether women are rightly appointed church leaders or not...in the big picture...
This is not a strong argument that women are forever excluded from church leadership.
Because it was ONE letter by ONE apostle to ONE church leader in ONE particular time and culture. A time and culture where women weren't allowed to be leaders in that way.
It's not obvious to me that anything in that passage says women are never to be church leaders.
The real question on this one is, do you believe the Bible is the written word of God?
If so, then it was God who said it was His will, His plan. Not an apostles.</font>[/QUOTE]With all due respect, I don't believe that's the 'real question'.
The real question, imo, is whether God intends us to understand those passages as implying that no church at any time in any culture should ever have female elders or deacons.
That's a separate question from whether the Bible is the 'Word of God' - imo.
After all, is Leviticus 19:11 the Word of God? If so are you careful to avoid wearing cloth woven from two kinds of materials? If not, why not? After all, the Word of God says "Don't do it!"
I believe we need to look at verses in context and remember that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life; so we read the Bible and study it and understand it and interpret it in light of what the Holy Spirit says to us through it.
Some people are so sure of what the Bible means that I don't see how they can be stopping and listening to the Holy Spirit, as they study passages.
Johnv:
I Tim. 2:11,12 was not cultural in it's declaration for men in authority. If you will read the rest of the chapter, you will find that God made man first and woman was in transgression being deceived.( vs.13,14). The two considerations are NOT CULTURAL. Adam was first. Eve was deceived. Furthermore, God has not auhtorized women to have authority over men. God is specific in I Tim. 2 and 3 women are to be submissive to men in the church. It is not a cultural thing to be the husband of one wife. The last time I checked he made them male and female. Males are husbands and females are wives.( Gen. 1:26,27).Paul delivered the COMMANDEMENTS OF THE LORD.( I Cor. 14:37). God directed Paul to place men in the leadereship role of the Church. ( I Tim. 2:11-15, ITim. 3:1-13, I Cor.11:3-12;14:34,35).
I Tim. 2:11,12 was not cultural in it's declaration for men in authority. If you will read the rest of the chapter, you will find that God made man first and woman was in transgression being deceived.( vs.13,14). The two considerations are NOT CULTURAL. Adam was first. Eve was deceived. Furthermore, God has not auhtorized women to have authority over men. God is specific in I Tim. 2 and 3 women are to be submissive to men in the church. It is not a cultural thing to be the husband of one wife. The last time I checked he made them male and female. Males are husbands and females are wives.( Gen. 1:26,27).Paul delivered the COMMANDEMENTS OF THE LORD.( I Cor. 14:37). God directed Paul to place men in the leadereship role of the Church. ( I Tim. 2:11-15, ITim. 3:1-13, I Cor.11:3-12;14:34,35).
Johnv:
If you want an example of a women in a leadership role in the church read Rev. 2:20-24. Her name was Jezebel. She conducted two classes in the church. One was a class on fornication. The second was on idolarous worship. However, God said it was a sin for her to do these things. She had no authority to teach. She taught immorality and idolatous worship.This is the only example in the New Testament of a woman teaching over a man. This thing displeased God.
Frank
If you want an example of a women in a leadership role in the church read Rev. 2:20-24. Her name was Jezebel. She conducted two classes in the church. One was a class on fornication. The second was on idolarous worship. However, God said it was a sin for her to do these things. She had no authority to teach. She taught immorality and idolatous worship.This is the only example in the New Testament of a woman teaching over a man. This thing displeased God.
Frank
Paul and Women
I trust what Glenn Miller writes more than I trust most Christian stuff on the Internet.
I trust what Glenn Miller writes more than I trust most Christian stuff on the Internet.
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
AITB wrote: After all, is Leviticus 19:11 the Word of God? If so are you careful to avoid wearing cloth woven from two kinds of materials? If not, why not? After all, the Word of God says "Don't do it!"
Bless God, yes. All cotton & made in America!
Bless God, yes. All cotton & made in America!
Originally posted by katie:
I think I would rather say, the application changes, than the meaning.
Freeing all slaves became a possible application at some point, that was not possible earlier. Or, we didn't see it, earlier. But the meaning of the Bible, I believe, has never been that enslaving humans was God's will for humans to do to one another.
lol
(No offense...I just think it's funny when people can agree in general but are at opposite ends on specifics
)
[ June 23, 2002, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]
What your really saying is that the meaning of the bible changes as we change, as society changes.
I think I would rather say, the application changes, than the meaning.
Freeing all slaves became a possible application at some point, that was not possible earlier. Or, we didn't see it, earlier. But the meaning of the Bible, I believe, has never been that enslaving humans was God's will for humans to do to one another.
Exactly what I was think
lol
(No offense...I just think it's funny when people can agree in general but are at opposite ends on specifics
[ June 23, 2002, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]
Maverick
Member
Amen, Katie! Comparing apples to oranges seems to be the theology of the day. A hermeneutic of culture and opinion rather than sound doctrine. I expect that from cults and apostate denominations, but it is sad to see it so prevalent in supposedly Conservative\Fundamental Baptist Churches. We have been infilitrated well by the world.
Terry_Herrington
New Member
It is hard for me to believe that this is even in question on a Baptist board. The Scripture is clear that God called men to the ministry and not women. Any woman who, therefore, would pastor a church is in open rebellion against God. It is amazing the way liberal Christians try to continually change what God has clearly stated in His Word.
Why do some women have a problem with this (Godly women don't)? Therefore, if you are a pastor and a woman, you are living an ungodly life. You may well belong to Christ, but you are living out of fellowship with Him.
Why do some women think that not being allowed to pastor is, somehow, making them inferior? It's not! God, for reasons of His own, ordained that man is to lead the local church (I know that the Lord Jesus Christ is the real leader).
I'm not qualified to be a football player; I'm too small (and old). That does not mean that a football player is better than I am. I do not sit around complaining about it or trying to change the rules to suit me. I just enjoy watching them do their thing.
Why do some women have a problem with this (Godly women don't)? Therefore, if you are a pastor and a woman, you are living an ungodly life. You may well belong to Christ, but you are living out of fellowship with Him.
Why do some women think that not being allowed to pastor is, somehow, making them inferior? It's not! God, for reasons of His own, ordained that man is to lead the local church (I know that the Lord Jesus Christ is the real leader).
I'm not qualified to be a football player; I'm too small (and old). That does not mean that a football player is better than I am. I do not sit around complaining about it or trying to change the rules to suit me. I just enjoy watching them do their thing.
Rev. Joshua
<img src=/cjv.jpg>
Terry, you're creating a false analogy. Being disqualified for playing football because you're not young or strong enough is being disqualified because you don't have the skills. Being disqualified from the pulpit because of your sex is like being disqualified from the football team because of your eye color.
Joshua
Joshua
Terry_Herrington
New Member
According to the Bible a woman was disqualified from pastoring because she was decieved by Satan. Adam, sinned deliberately.
1 Tim 2:11-3:1
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being DECEIVED was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
CHAPTER 3
1 This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
(KJV)
1 Tim 2:11-3:1
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being DECEIVED was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
CHAPTER 3
1 This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
(KJV)
SaggyWoman
Active Member
What kind of dorky questions are those?
This is a horrible poll. Puke.
This is a horrible poll. Puke.