Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

[MB]

IOW, you are insinuating that we are like the demons who can believe but cannot choose??

Nope. I'm not saying anything like that at all. In fact you came up with that idea on your own. There are those who believe and refuse to submit to Christ. It isn't as if they can't. It's that they chose to rebel as opposed to not rebel.

You're getting confused here, MB. Eph does NOT say "all of God." It says faith and even grace is a "gift of God." That does not mean that we don't have to believe it before we receive it. Similarly, Acts says we must believe, then RECEIVE.

skypair

You believe that you are your own co-redeemer and you call me confused. :laugh:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"And that not of yourselves" Says quite clearly that Salvation doesn't included your participation, "it is the gift of God." That means that it's all of God and you didn't do anything to obtain it. How can you deny scripture when it's staring you in the face.
Where in the Bible does it say you're required to do something to obtain Salvation? ("Namely choose.")I don't deny it says for us to believe. Maybe you could explain just how you came to believe. Tell us of how you first saught God and that you convinced your self and made yourself believe Tell us of all the things you did to save yourself.
MB

 

[Allan]

The way Allan and Webdog have degenerated this thread is why I don't post much anymore. I will see you both before the Lord Jesus and we will see how much "I" is in your regeneration.

Allan?

I have been nothing BUT curtious to you and others. If you can't answer that is fine but please don't make stuff up brother.

As for Web, he hasn't said anything 'degenerating' that I have read in this thread.

I have asked, and had to continuously ask for you to answer simple questions that deal specifically with the OP. Beyond the the degenerating post of the good Dr. there is nothing degenerating except what appears to be the inability to answer my simple questions. Otherwise we can both simply agree what I have given is both biblically and resolutely true.

 

[Allan]

I talked about life.

Life.."regeneration" comes before understanding. That is what the Bible says, and that is what my post said.

Have seen no scripture from you that states without life there is no understanding. What it does state is that without the revealing of truth to man by God Himself man will not understand.

Your statement in fact is biblically untrue in light of verses such as Rom 1:18-32 where they are not spiritually alive but scriptures states that "that which may be known of God is manifested to them". WHy? Because God personally revealed it or showed it to them so they 'would' know.

What is it that these dead men know (which God Himself revealed to them)? Well in verse 1:20 it states:
1. His eternal power
2. His Godhead - divine nature

vs 21:
3. They 'knew He was worthy to be glorified but didn't
4. They 'knew' He was worthy to be Thanked but didn't

vs 22:
5. They 'knew' His glory but changed it into something more like themselves.

vs 32:
6. They 'knew' His judgment against such
7. They 'knew' doing such was worthy of death.

James it is quite apparent they had a great deal of understanding and they are considered spiritually dead. Knowledge can be defined this way according to the dictionary. - The fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension

vs 25:
They changed the 'truth of God' (something they had and understood) into a lie.

vs 28:
They did not keep the 'knowledge of God'

God initiated the revelation of Himself (sin, righteousness, judgment to come) to them and it was ONLY after they rejected this truth which they understood that God 'gave them over'.

Then you also have many other passages like 2 Thes 2:10-12; Prov 1:22-33; Ezk 33:1-11; Rom 10; ect.. ect.. and so on and so on.

All of these are those who have rejected God but in the first God come to them and revealed truth to them that they might believe and be saved. The point is that they DO understand
BUT
They do not understand of and by themselves, it must be a work of God.

 

[Allan]

Hi Allan;

I don't see it as the Calvinist do but I do see that Salvation is all of God. Man's decision as you and skypair call it isn't a decision to believe or a choice of Christ as opposed to Satan.

It seems to me that both Calvinist and freewillers have missed the message. You both have some things right but neither side includeds all aspects of what scripture teaches. Shouldn't we consider all of what God's word actually says? Eph 2:8 teaches that it is all of God and Act 16:31 teaches that we must believe first. Both are right though not the way both sides describe it.

Man must be willing to listen but man's willingness to listen is brought on by the drawing to hear the gospel. Man's will is influenced by his senses. Man senses a drawing to hear what the gospel is all about. If the man ever believes he will believe only if he is convinced. Therefore his belief is dependant on the one doing the convincing. Man doesn't choose to believe because, he is either convinced or he isn't. There is always the rebellious nature of man and this nature is what makes a decision and it's always to rebel or not. Man's freewill doesn't extend any futher than that.

You are right about regeneration this does not happen until the man is convinced and becomes a believer. Being saved before faith is not biblical in any way. Many are drawn and many hear the gospel and yet reject it because they have chosen to reject it. However if a man is completely convinced of the truth he can't help but believe it. If the man chooses to rebel even then and some do. He still believes it and it convicts him to the bone. He has no choice in believing it but he isn't saved until he surrenders to Christ. You may disagree with me but this is how I came to know this. This above is exactly what happened to me.

I fought against accepting Christ in spite of the fact that I believed all that I had been taught about Christ. It haunted me it never let me have any peace. It convicted me ever time I heard His name. My own convictions pursued me to absolute defeat. Once defeated there wasn't any other way to go except death and I considerd it. Finaly I gave up and surrenderd. It wasn't a choice but the results of the work of God on my heart. Every bit of the process of my own Salvation was the work of God, from the drawing, to convincing, to belief, and surrender.

You might say "well you had to decide to surrender there for there's your decision". I would say no because to me life is to precious to commit suicide that means I had no choice. If you ever reached the bottom of your self, then you know there is only one way to go from there. :thumbs: UP!
MB

MB,
I do not disagree that salvation is all of God in the fact that God is the one who saves me. Eph 2:8-9 illistrates that even the faith I use to believe the truth of Christ unto salvation has come about because of the work of God in my life. His 'gift' toward us is that even while we are absolutely unworthy He will do this because it is His desire to do such - grace.

I differ with you about being convinced then you believe. You can only be convinced if you will first receive/accept/believe what you have been given. Thus they are actaully the same thing just different ways of saying it. We can say that being convinced is the placing all that we have believed into one act of faith in Christ.

To the last part my friend - there is always a choice. The fact that you believe life is to precious shows 'you' have chosen to believe this. You either make that truth your own by making apart of you (belief) or you reject it for something else. But I do understand what you are saying, I just don't 'necessarily' agree that once is convinced first then they believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

Have seen no scripture from you that states without life there is no understanding. What it does state is that without the revealing of truth to man by God Himself man will not understand.

Your statement in fact is biblically untrue in light of verses such as Rom 1:18-32 where they are not spiritually alive but scriptures states that "that which may be known of God is manifested to them". WHy? Because God personally revealed it or showed it to them so they 'would' know.

In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

I think you will find this in John 1...


Life does come before light/understanding

 

[Allan]

In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

I think you will find this in John 1...


Life does come before light/understanding

So [you] beleive that all mankind is alive?? You do know that the word for 'man' here refers to mankind right?You do remember the the next couple of verse down which state "He is the ligtht that lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world" - Right? If I didn't know better I would say your sounding like a universalist
Another thing- Does Jesus not also state that He is the light of the world?? The 'world' is in reference to the whole of mankind.

I slso note that you didn't respond to the facts of Rom 1:18-32, that those unbelievers (dead) had recieved 'understanding' from God. You did state that only those who have life, understand - correct?

.......................................................................................................................

Now if you would please be so kind as to answer my posting earlier directly to you at your interaction (which I appreciate):

Do you agree with RB and the Refomed view that regeneration entails being justified, sanctified, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, made righteous before God, and placed into Christ (as well as being given faith) - all this before the faith God gave (in your view) is excercised??

IF so then what do you do with the passages of scripture I gave stating all the above do not happen prior to faith but are imparted by, through, or because of the excercising of faith?

Refering to this:

Now if you will please answer the following that I also stated to RB:

...I agree the passage is speaking of faith vs works and it states without reservation or equivocation that we are not justified by our works but 'by faith'.

So I again ask you simply, plainly and in short:
1. Are you or are you not justified 'by faith' (Rom 3:28)?

2. Are you or are you not sanctified 'by faith' (Acts 26:18)?

3. Are you or are you not indwelt with Holy Spirit 'by faith' (Gal 3:14)?

4. Are you or are you not made righteous 'by faith' (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)?

............

Scripture states that these things are NOT imparted prior to the excersizing of faith but because of faith that is excersized toward Christ. Common RB let's get serious here and actaully look at what scripture says and not what someone says about the scriptures.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Nothing degnerating huh? I will leave it to the Lord to judge. That is my impression, and you have yours.

I also visit a Reformed discussion board frequently and there very little of this type of dissention on that board.

RB

 

[webdog]

Nothing degnerating huh? I will leave it to the Lord to judge. That is my impression, and you have yours.

I also visit a Reformed discussion board frequently and there very little of this type of dissention on that board.

RB

...yet no answers. I shall deem you king of Red Herring

 

[Jarthur001]

So [you] beleive that all mankind is alive??

Its called a double entendre and means both natures.

You do know that the word for 'man' here refers to mankind right?

It means that all life comes from God. This means both the nature life and spiritual.

You do remember the the next couple of verse down which state "He is the ligtht that lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world" - Right?

Indeed it does. God lights all men. But life must be in the man before he can see the light. What light does a dead man see?

If they are born of God....they then believe...for they have light.

If I didn't know better I would say your sounding like a universalist

I trust you know better

Another thing- Does Jesus not also state that He is the light of the world?? The 'world' is in reference to the whole of mankind.

Maybe you need to re-visit the passage.

I slso note that you didn't respond to the facts of Rom 1:18-32, that those unbelievers (dead) had recieved 'understanding' from God. You did state that only those who have life, understand - correct?

I reply to what you ask for. You asked me for a passage.

As to Romans 1....

Please read the text again and tell me if this is not knowing the facts about God.

People can believe there is a God and never see a need for them to follow Him. They can even believe Christ died or a cross and was raised on the 3rd day. Believing this happened is not salvation. Man can understand all the facts about God and reject God.

Understanding....is seeing your need to be saved from your sin. Back to John 1...verse 13 it says...Believe on his name. This name that verse 13 is talking about is not Jesus. There were tons on men called Jesus. It means Christ. When you believe Jesus was the Christ you mean you take him in all three OT offices. Prophet, Priest and King.

Understanding means then this...

As Prophet..believe he is the the way and the truth.
As Priest...I believe his blood took my sins.
As King...I live to follow and serve Him.

This is salvation and not what you see in Romans 1 where the people know about God...or could have known about God, but not have him as King they turned from him and rejected him for they did not understand their need.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan said..

Do you agree with RB and the Refomed view that regeneration entails being justified, sanctified, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, made righteous before God, and placed into Christ (as well as being given faith) - all this before the faith God gave (in your view) is excercised??

Yes....
If I understand you right.

Life comes before light.

back to John 1...

being born again is not by what I will. If it was based on my choice..it would be my will.

 

[Allan]

Its called a double entendre and means both natures.

I know this and was having a little fun with you - I know you do not believe in universalism :thumbs:

Indeed it does. God lights all men. But life must be in the man before he can see the light. What light does a dead man see?

What?!
God lights all men - Statement of God illumating the minds of all mankind
BUT life must be in man before he can see - Statement of 2 possibilities
....1. Man is physically alive and therefore God will illumitate his (and all mankinds) understanding about God in accordance with vs 9 (lighting every man)
OR
....2. Man must be spiritually alive in order for God to be able to illuminate his understanding but not to all men - thus disputing vs 9 (lighting every man).

A spiritually dead man can see what God makes him able to see James. That is both the power and perogitive of God.

If they are born of God....they then believe...for they have light.

No, born is not something prior to salvation but is the act of salvation. That is why the topic we are discussing in this post is really a philosophical argument based upon a false premise of what you understand dead to be (IMO). That is why I want to talk about what regeneration entails and how those aspects transpirie prior to faith when scripture specifically refutes this out-right by stating they are imparted 'by faith'.

Maybe you need to re-visit the passage.

Your right, I needed to clarify.
Christ lighting of the world refers only to all the unregenerate lost people on the planet. Not once, ever in the the entirety of scripture is the word 'world' used to descibe God's people or the elect. So you are correct in that I needed to clarify that statement since it did not mean ALL of mankind.

As to Romans 1....

Please read the text again and tell me if this is not knowing the facts about God.

No, this is knowing AND understanding all that God has revealed about Himself to them. They learned nothing about these things of or by themselves but the passage expressly states that God revealed these things to them - for the purpose of them believing. We know this because they chose not to and it was at that point that God gave them over to their choice AFTER He revealed Himself, Sin, and the Judgment to come. Is that not the work of the Holy Spirit in the world and that same work that He does upon the Elect or believers. Yep, I thought so to.

People can believe there is a God and never see a need for them to follow Him. They can even believe Christ died or a cross and was raised on the 3rd day. Believing this happened is not salvation. Man can understand all the facts about God and reject God.

Very true but no man on earth will ever (not ever) come to know any of this in a fashion were-by it is a truth to be denied except that God reveal it to them. Scripture states God is the one who reveals to man - there IS a God, that Christ died AND 'rose again' (something only the Holy Spirit can bring someone to understand) the 3rd day. These are not 'just' facts but facts that ONLY God reveals to man. God illuminates the truth to the unregnerate that they might KNOW the truth. This knowing always entails understanding James.

Understanding....is seeing your need to be saved from your sin. Back to John 1...verse 13 it says...Believe on his name. This name that verse 13 is talking about is not Jesus. There were tons on men called Jesus. It means Christ. When you believe Jesus was the Christ you mean you take him in all three OT offices. Prophet, Priest and King.

Understanding means then this...

As Prophet..believe he is the the way and the truth.
As Priest...I believe his blood took my sins.
As King...I live to follow and serve Him.

Understanding is seeing but understanding is not the same as believing and you are confusing the two.
One can understand all the God reveals about Himself, sin, and the Judgment to come (and they will understand since God hasn't failed in teaching yet) but that does not necessitate they will believe. Rom 1, Prov 1, 2 Thes 2, Ezk 33 all illistrate this point. God brings forth light to those IN Darkness that they might have life, not vise-versa brother.

"Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."
"Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. "
"Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "
"Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
"Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, "
"1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Notice here that God Called them out of darkness - the call is the gospel call and they were still in darkness when He called them out.

This is salvation and not what you see in Romans 1 where the people know about God...or could have known about God, but not have him as King they turned from him and rejected him for they did not understand their need.

Brother you are adding so much to the passage that is not even remotely there. You are dividing the meaning of understanding to be two distinctly different things then they are in fact one and the same. They KNEW - the only distinction is not understanding but whether or not they 'by faith' receiced that knowledge as truth.

Thus your premise of life before understanding is (as I see it biblically) a faulty one, if not a false one.

 

[Allan]

Allan said..



Yes....
If I understand you right.

Life comes before light.

back to John 1...

being born again is not by what I will. If it was based on my choice..it would be my will.

But according to scripture you are wrong.

Understanding comes before spiritual life.
We see this all through-out the scriptures just as I stated to RB - it is 'by faith' we are justified and 'by faith' we are sanctified, and 'by faith' the Holy Spirit indwells 'the believer', and it is 'by faith' we are made righteous before a Holy God, and thus because of all of the above we are placed into Christ and made one with Him - which is life.

ALL of the above is 'by faith' which means biblically, chronologically, and logically the excercising of faith precedes spiritual life.

 

[Jarthur001]

What?!
God lights all men -

Yes indeed

Statement of God illumating the minds of all mankind
BUT life must be in man before he can see -

The truth shines on all men. A dead man cannot see the light. He must be born again before he understands.

Statement of 2 possibilities
....1. Man is physically alive and therefore God will illumitate his (and all mankinds) understanding about God in accordance with vs 9 (lighting every man)
OR
....2. Man must be spiritually alive in order for God to be able to illuminate his understanding but not to all men - thus disputing vs 9 (lighting every man).

As I said before this passage is a double entendre and means both natures.

so......

1) All men are physically alive because of the natural birth. God has given man in his physically realm a mind to think and understand. This would be common grace.

In the spiritually realm "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn 1:5). The light shines on all men, but dead men do not see the light, nor understand the light. Again, understanding does not mean they do not understand the gospel message. It means they do not understand their need for salvation. The new birth must take place 1st.

John 1:13 is clear to who understands....Those "born of God". Please notice the word "were" in John 1:13.

A spiritually dead man can see what God makes him able to see James. That is both the power and perogitive of God.

Dead men do not see. Dead men do not walk or talk. They do not think nor have a will to choose. This is clear basic Bible truth. One of the reason Holy Spirit uses the new birth picture is for our own understanding of how it works. Just as you did not choose your earthly time and place to be born, also, your "new Birth" comes not from your will. Again...John 1:13

No, born is not something prior to salvation but is the act of salvation. That is why the topic we are discussing in this post is really a philosophical argument based upon a false premise of what you understand dead to be (IMO).

I gave you Bible support. John 1 covers it well. Also John 3 will cover it. And...many more passages. I cannot force you to believe the Bible

In Christ is LIFE and the LIFE is the LIGHT of men.

That is why I want to talk about what regeneration entails and how those aspects transpirie prior to faith when scripture specifically refutes this out-right by stating they are imparted 'by faith'.

Others have told you. You reject what they say. I will say it now.

Men are DEAD.
The gospel call goes out to all men. Dead men do not respond.
God gives life...Born of God.....man then understands and believes.

No, this is knowing AND understanding all that God has revealed about Himself to them. They learned nothing about these things of or by themselves but the passage expressly states that God revealed these things to them - for the purpose of them believing.

Allan, I'm sorry if I mislead you in thinking that man can know and understand all that God has revealed about himself. That was not my words nor my intent. What I meant to say was that the non-believe can indeed believe in a real God and believe his word is true, but still this is not salvation. I understand and believe it is true that speed limit on the highway near my house is 55MPH. Yet at times I do go beyond that limit. When I go beyond that limit does not mean I no longer believe that limit is true law.

Many people believe there is a God, but that is not salvation. They also believe the Bible is true. This too is not salvation. This knowing the facts about God is what Romans is talking about. In other words, God has shown man many facts about God where they should believe in him. They understand the facts and believe them in some cases. But they do not understand their need for God and reject those facts and "speed" down lifes highway in their own will.

Romans 1 is saying about the same thing as John 1.

We know this because they chose not to ...........

As all dead men will do.
I rest my case.

Is that not the work of the Holy Spirit in the world and that same work that He does upon the Elect or believers. Yep, I thought so to.

Allan, no where in the Bible does it talk about ALL men being born again. That is what happens to the elect and the elect only

 

[Jarthur001]

But according to scripture you are wrong.

Understanding comes before spiritual life.
We see this all through-out the scriptures just as I stated to RB - it is 'by faith' we are justified and 'by faith' we are sanctified, and 'by faith' the Holy Spirit indwells 'the believer', and it is 'by faith' we are made righteous before a Holy God, and thus because of all of the above we are placed into Christ and made one with Him - which is life.

ALL of the above is 'by faith' which means biblically, chronologically, and logically the excercising of faith precedes spiritual life.

I supported my views with Bible verses. You reject them.

 

[Jarthur001]

I
"Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."
"Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. "
"Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "
"Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
"Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, "
"1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Notice here that God Called them out of darkness - the call is the gospel call and they were still in darkness when He called them out.

Indeed. Dead men do not understand. They do not see the light. The new birth must happen 1st. They will always remain in darkness till that time.

 

[Allan]

Indeed. Dead men do not understand. They do not see the light.

Apparently you aren't reading the same scriptures I am. Those who sit in darkness (spiritually dead) do not 'see' the light?
Look again and re-evalute position which is in direct contradiction to scripture:

"Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."

If all I needed was one verse to destroy your opinion, this does it with absolute certainty. However There are mutlitudes of other verses which show that the unregenerate do indeed see the light and can choose to no longer be in darkness.

"Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. "

Here is another one. The light is to those who ARE IN Darkness and in the 'shadow of death' (under condemnation but not yet condemned) to guide them to peace.

"Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "

He came as a light in the world (unregenerate lost men) that they might believe and no longer abide IN darkness. They are IN darkness James. If they have life then they ALREADY have and are IN the light. You CAN NOT have spiritual life and no light in relation to Christ.

"Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

This is one of the most open and shut cases in scripture next to a few others.
God opening their eyes to turn them FROM darkness TO light. From Satan's power (which they are currently under and in - thus 'from' it) to God - SO THEY MAY RECIEVE.. forgiveness of sins (justification) and the inheritance (which includes the Holy Spirit) of those who are sanctifed (another aspect of the regeneration which can not be imparted apart from justification) BY FAITH. This does not state they are sanctified prior to the excercising of faith but AFTER.

This is one of the proverbial nails in your views coffin of being alive or regenerate in order TO believe. Scripture states absolutely - false.

"1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Notice here that God Called them out of darkness - the call is the gospel call and they were still in darkness when He called them out.

The are IN darkness when God calls to them to come out INTO the light. If one is in darkness then one is dead or seperated relationally from God.

The new birth must happen 1st. They will always remain in darkness till that time.

I think you are confused. One is not alive and still in darkness according to scripture. Yes, according to your theological presumption but not scripture.
If one is alive then one is in Christ for in Him is life. Thus if one is 'in Christ' one is IN the light also and not in darkness. You have a lot to explain in order to maintain any type of biblical stability here (IMO), since you are saying you can be alive but in darkness. Please - explain.

So let us set aside you philosophical notion of the wooden literal dead from which your false premise begins and look once again at when LIFE begins. Both you and I agree that the regeneration IS the beginning or spiritual birth of new life.
So I ask ONCE AGAIN, in accordance with the scriptures already provided:
Are we not justified 'by faith'?
Are we not sanctified 'by faith'?
Are we not indwelt by the Holy Spirit 'by faith'?
Are we not made righteous before a holy God 'by faith'?
In light of all the above being that which places us lawfully into Christ, is it not 'by faith'? we are regenerate/made alive/or born-again.

Please show scriptures which state any of the above transpirie prior to the excercising of faith if you believe otherwise.

 

[Allan]

I supported my views with Bible verses. You reject them.

You haven't even dealt with them so.. no, have supported nothing whatsoever.

Does scripture state or does it not that it is 'by faith' we are justified, sanctified, indwelt, made righeous, and thus alive (regenerate) in Christ??

It is a simple question to answer brother.

 

[Allan]

In the spiritually realm "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn 1:5). The light shines on all men, but dead men do not see the light, nor understand the light.

Again you are absolutly incorrect. If God reveals truth/light to man they WILL see it and the scriptures I have already provided scream you are in error. It is not I who will not believe brother but you who are ignoring scripture for a theological view.

Again, understanding does not mean they do not understand the gospel message. It means they do not understand their need for salvation. The new birth must take place 1st.

There is no double meaning to understanding in scripture except for someone to make it up. You are making an assumption they do not know their need for them to know their sin and the judgment to come because of it proves in fact they do know their need but they don't want to believe it so they trade the truth for a lie. Just because you know something does not mean you will believe it, and for God to reveal sin, His righteousness and the judgment to come as He does with all men (including believers).. we must say they know because it was God who showed them.

John 1:13 is clear to who understands....Those "born of God". Please notice the word "were" in John 1:13.

Born means saved. they were not saved before they beleived. They were not even justified, sanctified, indwelt, or righteous (regenerate/born) before they believed. You are still stuck with the glaring scriptural problem before you. To as many as 'received' Him (notice the word 'received') and that it correlates to the next verse which speaks to an event in the past as well. That event. "to as many as recieved (by faith) Him, to them He gave the power (what exactly is this I wonder) to become the children of God, to as many as believed on His name. That power is spoken of in the next verse that power He bestowed upon them is the New birth. Context in key here.

Dead men do not see. Dead men do not walk or talk. They do not think nor have a will to choose. This is clear basic Bible truth.

Actually I just biblically proved you are absolutely wrong. You have an incorrect understanding of what the bible states about the spiritually dead and it is that which forces you to continue bringing up something proven wrong even in the face of truth. Listen to the scriptures James they deny what you are stating with absolute certainty.

One of the reason Holy Spirit uses the new birth picture is for our own understanding of how it works. Just as you did not choose your earthly time and place to be born, also, your "new Birth" comes not from your will. Again...John 1:13

No non-cal disagrees with that. No man decides when he will be saved since God is the one who chooses when He will deal with each man individually. but as says the scripture 'to those who received Him He gave the power to be His children'. the new birth follows faith for it is 'by faith' or 'because of faith' we are justified and sanctified. Acts 26:18 is quite clear on this.

I gave you Bible support. John 1 covers it well.

No James, you gave me your opinion of what two verses 'mean' and I have shown how you are in error (IMO) though you still have not dealt with passage I have given proving scripturally the exact opposite.

Others have told you. You reject what they say. I will say it now.

Men are DEAD.
The gospel call goes out to all men. Dead men do not respond.
God gives life...Born of God.....man then understands and believes.

Again, scripture does not support your philosophical notion.
Scripture states that we christians "are Dead TO sin" and by your own defintion we can not respond to sin, look toward sin, or know about it.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

It is an absolute statement just as much as "we are dead in our tresspasses and sins. Romans 6 talks alot about being dead but still able to do things that according to you the dead can not do.

You either have to change the meaning again to something else or admit your defintion is not contrived from scripture but from a philosophical position.

Allan, I'm sorry if I mislead you in thinking that man can know and understand all that God has revealed about himself.

What God reveals about Himself that man WILL understand everything that God gave Him to know.

Many people believe there is a God, but that is not salvation. They also believe the Bible is true. This too is not salvation. This knowing the facts about God is what Romans is talking about. In other words, God has shown man many facts about God where they should believe in him. They understand the facts and believe them in some cases. But they do not understand their need for God and reject those facts and "speed" down lifes highway in their own will.

Here is where you leave fact for presumption. God reveals Himself to them in the same manner that He does with believers. The did not just understand some facts (which can only be understood by God revealing them to them) about Him but understood who He was and thus YES their need for Him. But that is where they must decide to believe they truly need Him (as God has pointed out to them) or if they will turn the truth into something else for their pleasure. THAT is what Romans 1 is about. God extensively reached out to them in revealing Himself - righteousness, their sin, and judgment to come - but they rejected it and He gave them over to their choice. You are adding to much fluff into the passage which is not biblically there at all brother. Don't stuff it, just read it.

Allan, no where in the Bible does it talk about ALL men being born again. That is what happens to the elect and the elect only

I never said it did. I said God reachs out to all men in the same manner via the Holy Spirit convicting them sin, His righteousness, and the judgement to come. Men must choose to believe the truths God has revealed that they might be saved or reject them.


Please refer to my other two post so we can shorten this again

 

[MB]

It seems to me that Calvinist have taken a metaphor and considered it literal. Being dead spiritually isn't a literal death. If it were then they would have a point with there claim "The dead don't understand they can't hear" The truth is that scripture doesn’t support a disability with understanding or hearing.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
This verse is true just as it is stated. Yet it doesn’t say that man can’t understand or that he can’t hear. The reason men don’t understand is because they either haven’t heard or will not listen.
The natural man loves darkness but when that man is drawn. He can hear and understand. God is not going to waste His breath on someone who can’t.
If being spiritually dead isn’t a metaphor then explain why when we are saved does Paul say.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How is it we can sin if we are dead to it? We sin because being dead to sin is a metaphor just as is being spiritually dead is a metaphor. Calvinist have taken this metaphor and exaggerated it to be literal. This is why you feel that regeneration has to happen before faith. You simply have fell for your own exaggeration.
Christ commanded all who have ears to be able to hear.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Just about everyone has ears. Yet Calvinist insist that the non-regenerate can’t hear. I don’t understand why they can’t see the truth. I fear that the truth is stolen from them. Stolen by the fore fathers they hold so highly in reverence.
MB

 

[webdog]

I would also add to the calvinist philosophical approach to spiritual death, that death means a ceasing or ending of life. Life was there at one point, and ended.