Ordo Salutis

[ReformedBaptist]

This thread is for the purpose of discussing the order of salvation, or rather the application by the Holy Spirit of the blessings of Christ.

Pulling a question from Sinclair Ferguson:

In what ways are the various aspects of the application of redemption (such as justification, regeneration, conversion and sanctification) related to each other? and, Why should we expect some logic in the order of application of redemption?

Whoever participates, this will be a debate, extensive, and take time. Please don't derail the subject.

RB

 

[webdog]

Justification, regeneration and conversion happen simultaneously...sanctification occurs thereafter and until glorification. There, wasn't that easy? :laugh:

edited...conversion is also part of sanctification, too.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This thread is for the purpose of discussing the order of salvation, or rather the application by the Holy Spirit of the blessings of Christ.

Pulling a question from Sinclair Ferguson:



Whoever participates, this will be a debate, extensive, and take time. Please don't derail the subject.

RB

Salve RB! Quid Agis?

I think this will be a very interesting thread. I'm not an expert on this subject but I will enjoy seeing the posts.

 

[skypair]

This thread is for the purpose of discussing the order of salvation, or rather the application by the Holy Spirit of the blessings of Christ.

Gladly! :laugh:

Justification -- sanctification -- glorification. Now let's break it down...

Justification REQUIRES believing the gospel of Jesus Christ which reconciles us to God positionally (we're adopted) and judicially (we're declared righteous).

Sanctification is the sovereign act of God whereby He gives us the Holy Spirit to indwell us (known variously as "regeneration," "new birth/new creation," "born again," "sanctified," etc.). With the impartation of the Spirit, we have the "substance" and "evidence" of faith, Heb 11:1 -- that is, He gives us faith. He gives us into Christ's kingdom and "body," the believing church.

Now the things He doesn't give us is discipleship. We still must choose to be discipled and followers and sometimes we choose "amiss" and follow someone who ISN'T part of Christ's body.

Glorification -- well, I don't think this is an issue, is it? suffice it to say that we are never fully "saved" until we are taken out of sin, death, and this world.

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I will be posting little bits at a time. One thing I have found as I have looked at this concept is worth mentioning. First, I define "coversion" as repentance and faith. It seems one of the big questions in this debate is whether or not regeneration precedes faith/repentance/conversion.

I found an article by Piper and he hits the nail on the head with this one. This for me (not Piper, but the Scripture) settles this question forever. Look at 1 John 5:1

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

The word believeth in the greek is in the present tense. "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense." - Blue Letter Bible def.

The words "is born" in the text are in the perfect tense. "The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Blue Letter Bible def

This text is translated well by Youngs "Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:"

This reflects the tenses of the Greek and teaches that every person who is presenting believing Jesus is Christ, this person has (past) been born again.

I will add a little more later regarding why I believe regeneration and being born again are the same thing.

RB

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I will be posting little bits at a time. One thing I have found as I have looked at this concept is worth mentioning. First, I define "coversion" as repentance and faith. It seems one of the big questions in this debate is whether or not regeneration precedes faith/repentance/conversion.

I found an article by Piper and he hits the nail on the head with this one. This for me (not Piper, but the Scripture) settles this question forever. Look at 1 John 5:1

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

The word believeth in the greek is in the present tense. "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense." - Blue Letter Bible def.

The words "is born" in the text are in the perfect tense. "The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Blue Letter Bible def

This text is translated well by Youngs "Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:"

This reflects the tenses of the Greek and teaches that every person who is presenting believing Jesus is Christ, this person has (past) been born again.

I will add a little more later regarding why I believe regeneration and being born again are the same thing.

RB

So in other words you can't believe unless something happens?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So in other words you can't believe unless something happens?

I suppose that statement would be a logical conclusion. It is important, I think, to stick with what the text is stating though. It is stating that those who are presently believing that Jesus is Christ have been born again.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Just a quick journey through the web it states that a calvanist would view it in this order:

1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) - http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/

and a armenian would view it this way

1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It just occured to me that this discussion can easily turn on the covenantal christian vs. the dispensationalistic christian. Can justification be understood apart from a covenantal perspective? Here is a quote from Edward Hamilton which seems resonable from a historical perspective

Does this mean that there is an opposition between faith and rite? As Paul might say, me genoito, may it never be! Rite remains a vital expression of the community's active spiritual life and communion, and Paul was more than willing to continue to execute the requirements of the Torah with every bit as much zeal as before. But he would firmly forbid any suggestion that the fully realized grace of the new oikonomia of Christ was contingent on universalizing those ritual elements. Gentiles remain ethnoculturally Gentiles, Jews remain ethnoculturally Jews, and the latter cannot force the former to comply with their praxis. God will, in the end, declare all those in Christ to be members of the covenant community on the basis of their faith, and nothing else. And so nothing other than faith could be required as a badge of identification within that community. The circumcised and the uncircumcised alike were truly the heirs of Abraham.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I suppose that statement would be a logical conclusion. It is important, I think, to stick with what the text is stating though. It is stating that those who are presently believing that Jesus is Christ have been born again.

Ok. I can see how it means that.

 

[Marcia]

I found an article by Piper and he hits the nail on the head with this one. This for me (not Piper, but the Scripture) settles this question forever. Look at 1 John 5:1

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

The word believeth in the greek is in the present tense. "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense." - Blue Letter Bible def.

The words "is born" in the text are in the perfect tense. "The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Blue Letter Bible def

This text is translated well by Youngs "Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:"

This reflects the tenses of the Greek and teaches that every person who is presenting believing Jesus is Christ, this person has (past) been born again.

I will add a little more later regarding why I believe regeneration and being born again are the same thing.

RB

See NET Bible at http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm:
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ8 has been fathered9 by God, and everyone who loves the father10 loves the child fathered by him

Notes:
9tn The verb γεννάω (gennaw) here means to be fathered by God and thus a child of God. The imagery in 1 John is that of the male parent who fathers children. See the note on “fathered” in 2:29 for further discussion of this imagery.

Also loves the child fathered by him. Is the meaning of 5:1b a general observation or a specific statement about God and Christians? There are three ways in which the second half of 5:1 has been understood: (1) as a general statement, proverbial in nature, applying to any parent: “everyone who loves the father also loves the child fathered by him.” (2) This has also been understood as a statement that is particularly true of one’s own parent: “everyone who loves his own father also loves the (other) children fathered by him (i.e., one’s own brothers and sisters).” (3) This could be understood as a statement which refers particularly to God, in light of the context (5:1a): “everyone who loves God who fathered Christians also loves the Christians who are fathered by God.” Without doubt options (2) and (3) are implications of the statement in its present context, but it seems most probable that the meaning of the statement is more general and proverbial in nature (option 1). This is likely because of the way in which it is introduced by the author with πᾶς ὁ (pas Jo) + participle. The author could have been more explicit and said something like, “everyone who loves God also loves God’s children” had he intended option (3) without ambiguity. Yet that, in context, is the ultimate application of the statement, because it ultimately refers to the true Christian who, because he loves God, also loves the brethren, those who are God’s offspring. This is the opposite of 4:20, where the author asserted that the opponents, who profess to love God but do not love the brethren, cannot really love God because they do not love the brethren.

I am not sure you can use this verse to try to show the order of salvation because that is not what the verse is about. It's about the fact that Christians love other Christians.

Even using the idea that one "has been born again" does not mean he was born again before something else, like belief. I could say, "everyone who believes has been born again" because anyone who believes in Christ was born again at the moment of belief.

 

[Reformer]

I would hard pressed to vary far from this, but I will add somethings happen simultaneously.......the list is more Logical than Chronological in that respect


1) election
2) predestination
3) calling
4) regeneration
5) faith
6) repentance
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Reformer

 

[skypair]

Justification -- sanctification -- glorification.

Start with this. How is one "saved wholly?" Soul, spirit, body. Now tell us -- How is the soul saved? How is the spirit saved? How is the body saved?

Adam died in the same order: His soul died immediately, his spirit progressively, his body eventually. Reversing that, we must be reconciled with God immediately, sanctified in spirit (intellect, emotions, will) progressively, and glorified bodily ultimately.

This is NOT a difficult analogy. All this adding of other "steps"...

1) election
2) predestination
3) calling
4) regeneration
5) faith
6) repentance
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

...is a of secondary significance.

skypair

 

[exscentric]

Since the blood of animals could not save according to Hebrews is the Ordo S. different for the Old Testament saint? If so how is it different? :wavey:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

See NET Bible at http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm:
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ8 has been fathered9 by God, and everyone who loves the father10 loves the child fathered by him

Notes:
9tn The verb γεννάω (gennaw) here means to be fathered by God and thus a child of God. The imagery in 1 John is that of the male parent who fathers children. See the note on “fathered” in 2:29 for further discussion of this imagery.

Also loves the child fathered by him. Is the meaning of 5:1b a general observation or a specific statement about God and Christians? There are three ways in which the second half of 5:1 has been understood: (1) as a general statement, proverbial in nature, applying to any parent: “everyone who loves the father also loves the child fathered by him.” (2) This has also been understood as a statement that is particularly true of one’s own parent: “everyone who loves his own father also loves the (other) children fathered by him (i.e., one’s own brothers and sisters).” (3) This could be understood as a statement which refers particularly to God, in light of the context (5:1a): “everyone who loves God who fathered Christians also loves the Christians who are fathered by God.” Without doubt options (2) and (3) are implications of the statement in its present context, but it seems most probable that the meaning of the statement is more general and proverbial in nature (option 1). This is likely because of the way in which it is introduced by the author with πᾶς ὁ (pas Jo) + participle. The author could have been more explicit and said something like, “everyone who loves God also loves God’s children” had he intended option (3) without ambiguity. Yet that, in context, is the ultimate application of the statement, because it ultimately refers to the true Christian who, because he loves God, also loves the brethren, those who are God’s offspring. This is the opposite of 4:20, where the author asserted that the opponents, who profess to love God but do not love the brethren, cannot really love God because they do not love the brethren.

I am not sure you can use this verse to try to show the order of salvation because that is not what the verse is about. It's about the fact that Christians love other Christians.

Even using the idea that one "has been born again" does not mean he was born again before something else, like belief. I could say, "everyone who believes has been born again" because anyone who believes in Christ was born again at the moment of belief.

I think what net bible is trying to say necesarily follows, but apparantly the author that wrote what you quoted focused on the second part of the verse, giving the appearance that he/she really didn't deal with the first part of the verse...which is where I have made my argument.

The point being, that based on the tenses of the first part of the verse, those having been born again (past) are presently believing. To make an ordo salutis out of this verse is an inference or observation. Let me be clear on this. First, I am not wholly convinced that the subject of ordo salutis is of that great of consequence. But I could be completely wrong about this. Second, I am not convinced that the Scriptures themselve positively teach an ordo salutis.

Notice how I replied to some of the conlusions of folks in this thread. I am seeking to stick with the text itself. It says that whosover is presently believing in Jesus, has in the past been born of God.

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Since the blood of animals could not save according to Hebrews is the Ordo S. different for the Old Testament saint? If so how is it different? :wavey:

What were the OT saints looking forward to in the offering of animals? It was a foreshadow of that perfect sacrifice in Christ. So I don't think it was different.

RB

 

[Marcia]

Notice how I replied to some of the conlusions of folks in this thread. I am seeking to stick with the text itself. It says that whosover is presently believing in Jesus, has in the past been born of God.

RB

Right, I see what you are saying but I do not see the text supporting it. Of course all who believe in Christ have been born again. That says nothing about the order of salvation.

Besides, you need more than one passage if you want to make a case, (but I don't think this passage is one of them).

My own view is that there is no passage to support any one view because we can find passages to support different views. I think God doesn't want to tell us the order because it's none of our business.

 

[Allan]

I will be posting little bits at a time. One thing I have found as I have looked at this concept is worth mentioning. First, I define "coversion" as repentance and faith. It seems one of the big questions in this debate is whether or not regeneration precedes faith/repentance/conversion.

I found an article by Piper and he hits the nail on the head with this one. This for me (not Piper, but the Scripture) settles this question forever. Look at 1 John 5:1

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

The word believeth in the greek is in the present tense. "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense." - Blue Letter Bible def.

The words "is born" in the text are in the perfect tense. "The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Blue Letter Bible def

This text is translated well by Youngs "Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:"

This reflects the tenses of the Greek and teaches that every person who is presenting believing Jesus is Christ, this person has (past) been born again.

I will add a little more later regarding why I believe regeneration and being born again are the same thing.

RB

Actaully RB, there is quite a problem here and it has been quite extensively talked about here in my Regeneration thread by myself, TCGreek, and Alex Q.

Here is an excert that begins the discussion we had on it which refutes the misunderstanding of using a "perfect tense" word with "present force" to derive some form of chronology from it to maintain an order of salvation. Though Alex wasn't popular on the board due to his supiority complex he was correct in this and much more eloquent than I, though I was involved in much of the conversation as well.

Originally Posted by Alex Quackenbush
While it is true the perfect tense refers to an action with permanent results assuming being "born" refers chronologically to being born before believing Christ misunderstands the emphasis of the use of the perfect, particularly here where it is used with present force. And generally this is the use of the perfect tense. Not to establish a fixed time in the past but establish that in the past something occurred and now has continuous results. It simply focuses on the idea that it is not an ongoing or continuous event but a complete action in the past with current results. Hence, to attempt to claim when in the past it occurred in this verse is to misunderstand its use, particularly when the present tense "is" establishes its emphasis in "is born of God". Meaning of course, born of God in the past at some time and is now and will be. But at no point is it the perfect attempting to imply it preceded faith in this verse, that isn't the purpose of its use here.

On the other hand our faith, or believing, is often used in continuous tense without emphasis on a fixed past point and a one time action, or completed action.

"Whoever is one that is believing (no emphasis on the past since the author is referring to the here and now) that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God which happened sometime in the past".

You will be born again or born of God once. Regeneration occurs once. And while saving faith occurs once the expression of our saving faith is continuous. The idea here is not establishing a chronology between "whoever believes" and "born of God" but is establishing the reality that at some point he was born of God and is now born of God evidenced by their confession.

To provide a summation:

Whoever says they believe in Christ to you at this time was at some point in the past born of God, is now still born of God and will continue to be born of God.


Whoever has a chopped off hand and shows it to you now, at some point in the past had their hand chopped off, is now still with a chopped off hand and will continue to have a chopped off hand.

Does this mean their hand had to be chopped off before they stuck it in the turbine? No, but here the same Greek perfect would be used. Why? Because the emphasis on the "PRESENT RESULT" of a past action.

There are instances in the Greek when the emphasis is on the past action and its time but here is NOT one of them.

The perfect tense is not referencing chronology (as some perpetuate) but a state of present being due to the past acts of belief and being born.

The very fact one is in pesently continuing in belief is proof that he has been born again. Both events (belief and born) look back to a past event that is proven through present realities. Thus if one is no longer of belief that first testified of it, it is proof that he has not been born again. Which is why they leave us because they were never of us.

 

[exscentric]

Originally Posted by exscentric
Since the blood of animals could not save according to Hebrews is the Ordo S. different for the Old Testament saint? If so how is it different? :wavey:

"What were the OT saints looking forward to in the offering of animals? It was a foreshadow of that perfect sacrifice in Christ. So I don't think it was different."

Not sure the OT saints were looking forward to anything but a Messiah and that a political one, they were offering animals because they were told to. If they were looking for a suffering blood shedding offering Messiah, why didn't the apostles know what was going on during their training? They didn't grasp the coming crucifixion/resurrection - being good Jews had they looked forward to Christ through their animals you'd think they would have gotten it.

 

[Allan]

This thread is for the purpose of discussing the order of salvation, or rather the application by the Holy Spirit of the blessings of Christ.

Pulling a question from Sinclair Ferguson:



Whoever participates, this will be a debate, extensive, and take time. Please don't derail the subject.

RB

Order I believe:

1) election to salvation,
2) predestination to conform those saved to the image of Christ,
3) gospel call
4) conversion (faith & repentance),
5) regeneration - which includes simultaniously :,
....(5a.) justification and sanctification (logical order of being made righteous in Christ and united unto God)
6) sactification (spiritual growth)
7) glorification.


Really and truthfully the order here is typically centered around what regeneration is and what it does BUT ALSO what should be talked about how does regeneration do this? Most specifically that if regeneration is before faith - "How" does regeneration before faith and salvation salvation bring us into a union or approval or better reconciled with God?

There are differing views on your side (to smaller or greater degrees) that regeneration sanctifies, and or justifies, and and or brings one into a relationship with Christ Jesus, or that it 'just' brings them into unity with God. I have personally spoken with people that have held different portions of the above.
So in short the person regenerate is given:
1. a new nature
2. (some state this) the Holy Spirit though not yet indwelling them (some say He does)
3. their relation to God has been reconciled
4. And are now IN Christ.
5. - and are given faith and repentence to be used (but this isn't the issue yet)

I will place this here from the link I provided about what I see:

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation - Believe and be saved. Why? Because the person who is regenerated before salvation, according to some, is (1) given a new nature AND (2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them) AND (3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND (4) they are now IN Christ.

The problem in the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

The scriptural mandate for one to have faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If this is true what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "repent and beleive", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith. Therefore they are IN Christ.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. Then they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
2. and to be sanctified you must ALREADY be Justified
....a. that he WILL BE righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER (or one who has not yet believed).

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is my belief that the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

I believe you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are describe as being born-again (the New Birth).