Ordo Salutis

[Allan]

Originally Posted by Dale-c
Option one: God draws a sinner. God does everything He can or will to save the sinner and convict the sinner of his sin and need for a savior.
At this point it is up to the sinner to accept or reject.

Option two: God the Father has Given this sinner to the Son. The Son has purchased the this sinner with His blood in a substitutionary fashion on the cross.
The Spirit brings conviction to the sinner.
The sinner has his sinful will changed, his heart regenerated by the drawing of the father and is saved. Irresistibly.
The sinner may resist some, he may have resisted before but at the point decreed by God he will repent and believe.

(emphasis mine)

The above (from the thread - Are You a Calvinist) is an example of what I was speaking of earlier in this thread regarding some holding to regeneration not being almost simultanious with faith but that some people could be regenerate for long periods of times (this refering to any length of time beyond simultanious) even resisting to a degree to believe till that faithful day when they give in and succumb to belief.


Again to recap 'your' veiw though and see if I understand you correctly:

So to re-cap and make sure I'm understanding you correctly:
You hold that before a person excersizes faith unto salvation they are regenerate and this regeneration before faith entails the person being justified before God, sanctified unto God, filled with the Holy Spirit, placed in Christ (thus alive).

Do I have that correct so far?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB,

I wanted to get back to this since this is more the crux in my mind that shoudl be examined first.

Even though though faith and regeneration are or at the very least nearly simultanious it is the reformed belief or view that regeneration precedes faith in a 'logical' order. Thus to the reformed mind, regeneration is not actually salvation but that which comes before it.

When I asked the questions to which you gave the above answers it was specifically with regard to regeneration 'before' faith is excersized and thus being actually saved.

So to re-cap and make sure I'm understanding you correctly:
You hold that before a person excersizes faith unto salvation they are regenerate and this regeneration before faith entails the person being justified before God, sanctified unto God, filled with the Holy Spirit, placed in Christ (thus alive).

Do I have that correct so far?

If regeneration occurs simultaneously with faith, then speaking of order seems odd. I have searched the Scriptures on the matter and the closest I think the Word of God comes to answering our question is that the believing into Christ is the result of being regenerate. I can't imagine anyone savingly believing into Christ who is not regenerate, nor can I imagine someone who is regenerate who is not also believing/trusting into Christ.

I was quickened while I was dead in my trespasses and sins.

RB

 

[MB]

If regeneration occurs simultaneously with faith, then speaking of order seems odd. I have searched the Scriptures on the matter and the closest I think the Word of God comes to answering our question is that the believing into Christ is the result of being regenerate. I can't imagine anyone savingly believing into Christ who is not regenerate, nor can I imagine someone who is regenerate who is not also believing/trusting into Christ.

You believe this then with out any scriptural support. The reason you believe this is because you don't believe than unregenerate man can believe even with the convincing that God does through His gospel. No doubt a result of total depravity.
This denies that God can make a sinner believe by convincing Him through the gospel. It denys that man can become convicted, while still in his sins.
This denys the power of God.

I was quickened while I was dead in my trespasses and sins.

RB

As were we all. I was still in my sins when I was convinced and convicted I was still in my sins when I repented of them. Otherwise my repentance could not have been genuine. You cannot be regenerate and be in your sins. If I were already regenerate, my sin, would have been forgiven and there would have been no need of repentance.
MB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

You believe this then with out any scriptural support. The reason you believe this is because you don't believe than unregenerate man can believe even with the convincing that God does through His gospel. No doubt a result of total depravity.
This denies that God can make a sinner believe by convincing Him through the gospel. It denys that man can become convicted, while still in his sins.
This denys the power of God.

As were we all. I was still in my sins when I was convinced and convicted I was still in my sins when I repented of them. Otherwise my repentance could not have been genuine. You cannot be regenerate and be in your sins. If I were already regenerate, my sin, would have been forgiven and there would have been no need of repentance.
MB

Aside from really misunderstanding what I believe, you state you were convinced and convicted while still in your sins when you repented. Why were you convinced (not how) and why were you convicted (not how).

RB

 

[skypair]

If regeneration occurs simultaneously with faith, then speaking of order seems odd. I have searched the Scriptures on the matter and the closest I think the Word of God comes to answering our question is that the believing into Christ is the result of being regenerate. I can't imagine anyone savingly believing into Christ who is not regenerate, nor can I imagine someone who is regenerate who is not also believing/trusting into Christ.

However, the OT saints were saved by faith before knowing Christ and will not be "regenerate" until they are resurrected to His MK.

I know this is something you don't acknowledge but it points to the notions 1) that we are saved before being regenerate chronologically, not just logically, and 2) that JUSTIFYING faith that reconciles us to God comes before SANCTIFYING new covenant faith that is the sovereign giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

skypair

 

[webdog]

Aside from really misunderstanding what I believe, you state you were convinced and convicted while still in your sins when you repented. Why were you convinced (not how) and why were you convicted (not how).

RB

God does the convicting, not the convincing. His Law on our hearts, our conscience (meaning "with knowledge"), His creation, evangelism, God's Word, and the built in desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11) are all supplied by God. If He were responsible for the convincing, He is also responsible for not convincing, whick makes no sense since the very ones He did not convince still have all of the above information. God has then supplied faulty information which has no power in convincing. That alone is a slap in the face of God's sovereignty.

 

[MB]

Aside from really misunderstanding what I believe, you state you were convinced and convicted while still in your sins when you repented. Why were you convinced (not how) and why were you convicted (not how).


RB

I was convinced because I listened to the gospel and by the gospel we are all convinced. Once convinced it's obvious that I believed because I was convinced. Total depravity of the reformers claim that a man is unable to hear or understand the gospel. This is unscriptural. No where in scripture does it ever say man is disabled except with the Jews at the time of Christ.

After the rejection of Christ by the Jews, Salvation was sent unto the Gentiles and Paul wrote;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

It is senseless for reformers to deny scripture and claim the disability of all men. Men can and do hear and God can convince and convict anyone if they will only listen in stead of rebelling. Our only choice is to stay in the darkness we do not choose Christ because he has already chosen us.

Once a man is convinced of the knowledge of the truth, it will convict him.
All of this only serves to insure that the man believes it doesn't save him. Men are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our faith is only the hope of Salvation it isn't righteous enough to save anything. We are saved by grace through faith and that not of our selves.
The reason it isn't of our selves is because it isn't our's. It's the faith of Jesus Christ. And yes it is a gift just as Salvation is.
MB

 

[MB]

God does the convicting, not the convincing. His Law on our hearts, our conscience (meaning "with knowledge"), His creation, evangelism, God's Word, and the built in desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11) are all supplied by God. If He were responsible for the convincing, He is also responsible for not convincing, whick makes no sense since the very ones He did not convince still have all of the above information. God has then supplied faulty information which has no power in convincing. That alone is a slap in the face of God's sovereignty.

Is God's word inspired by Him? If yes, did he inspire it to convince us of Himself?, Did He have His preacher preach it? If yes, Why if it wasn't for the possibility that you might listen instead of rebelling? If you listen to the gospel with out deciding to rebel you will be convinced. Being convinced of a thing does not happen because you decide to but because you become convinced by the hearing of it. This is why faith cometh by hearing. It isn't something you just decide to believe with out being convinced of it.
Yes there is trust involved but just as I told RB we aren't saved by our faith and scripture never says we are. We are saved by grace through faith and that faith that saves isn't even ours though we must believe. Gal 2:16 says so.
MB

 

[webdog]

Is God's word inspired by Him? If yes, did he inspire it to convince us of Himself?, Did He have His preacher preach it? If yes, Why if it wasn't for the possibility that you might listen instead of rebelling? If you listen to the gospel with out deciding to rebel you will be convinced. Being convinced of a thing does not happen because you decide to but because you become convinced by the hearing of it. This is why faith cometh by hearing. It isn't something you just decide to believe with out being convinced of it.
Yes there is trust involved but just as I told RB we aren't saved by our faith and scripture never says we are. We are saved by grace through faith and that faith that saves isn't even ours though we must believe. Gal 2:16 says so.
MB

The above bolded makes no sense whatsoever. God needs no faith, we do. We all have faith in something every minute of the day. It's the object of our faith that saves. God convicts us, and requires true repentance and faith on our part. That is what the entire Bible points to.

 

[MB]

The above bolded makes no sense whatsoever. God needs no faith, we do. We all have faith in something every minute of the day. It's the object of our faith that saves. God convicts us, and requires true repentance and faith on our part. That is what the entire Bible points to.

I didn't say that man doesn't have to believe
How can you deny scripture? It plainly says we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It goes on to say; "we also have believed in Jesus Christ,that even we might be justified by the faith of Christ".
What doesn't make any sense is believing you had anything to do with your own Salvation.
What makes you think you have any power to help save your self? When Salvation is all of God?.
Sure man has his freewill to choose darkness or not but it's his only choice because man doesn't choose Christ. God has already chosen us all.

It is God's word being preached that convinces us. Sales men convince the customers of there product. Even though the salesman may lie about it. We don't choose to believe because we think it's a lie. We are convinced when we trust what the salesman says. When we trust what he says, we are then convinced. Other wise there would be no such word as convincing.
This is what we do when we lead someone to Christ we have to be as convincing as we can be. This is why we can't do it alone because God is who tells us to preach to them. He leads us to those who need to hear and He uses us to convince them. Like what I'm trying so hard to do here. I want to convince you of the truth.
You have to stick to the fundamentals of scripture to understand it. The moment you began to think you had something to do with your own Salvation. You left the truth behind and you have reason to boast that you helped with your own Salvation. Salvation is all of God.
MB

 

[Allan]

If regeneration occurs simultaneously with faith, then speaking of order seems odd. I have searched the Scriptures on the matter and the closest I think the Word of God comes to answering our question is that the believing into Christ is the result of being regenerate. I can't imagine anyone savingly believing into Christ who is not regenerate, nor can I imagine someone who is regenerate who is not also believing/trusting into Christ.

I was quickened while I was dead in my trespasses and sins.

RB

They are 'almost' simultaneous and unlike the Reformed belief I do not think it is a 'logical' order at all but a specific order that happens at the same moment in time. I say it is not a 'logical' order but a spelled out specific order based primarily upon the evidence of what I was asking you about regeneration (and all it entails) preceding faith (which is supposedly a part of that list). Let me show you what I am talking about.

You state that being regenerate precedes faith and that in this regenerating man is/has been given:
1. a new nature (old things are passed away behold all things have become new - IOW - you are no longer what you were);
2. the Holy Spirit indwells them;
3. their relationship to God has been reconciled (justified);
4. they have been sanctified unto God;
4. they are now IN Christ (thus alive);
5. and are given faith and repentence to be used for salvation.

This is the position you have declared so far (as far I understand you).

Now here is the problem with what you have stated if all the above are imparted at regeneration (which includes faith) that precedes the excersizing of one's faith.
None of the above, biblically, are imparted to man except 'by faith'.
as I have shown here:

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

It is not before faith is excersized that these are imparted to us (your view of regeneration) but 'after' we have believed.

Therefore if all of the above happened 'at' the regeneration, which includes the giving of faith (thus regen preceding faith), then we have a conflict with scripture which states the exact opposite. I do agree that all you have stated happen 'at' the regeneration (aside from faith). But scripturally if one holds that regeneration entails the above, regeneration can not precede faith for it is by faith all of the above is imparted to man. Then you must conclude (as I see it) that faith precedes regeneration.

In conclusion:
The verses I gave above show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is first excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms (regeneration and salvation) are synonymos with the phrase - born-again (or the New Birth - you are no more what you were).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Unus: Gratias
Duo: Eiectio
Tres: Fides
quattuor: excusatio
quinque: sanctifico

Salus

 

[webdog]

I didn't say that man doesn't have to believe
How can you deny scripture? It plainly says we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It goes on to say; "we also have believed in Jesus Christ,that even we might be justified by the faith of Christ".
What doesn't make any sense is believing you had anything to do with your own Salvation.
What makes you think you have any power to help save your self? When Salvation is all of God?.
Sure man has his freewill to choose darkness or not but it's his only choice because man doesn't choose Christ. God has already chosen us all.

It is God's word being preached that convinces us. Sales men convince the customers of there product. Even though the salesman may lie about it. We don't choose to believe because we think it's a lie. We are convinced when we trust what the salesman says. When we trust what he says, we are then convinced. Other wise there would be no such word as convincing.
This is what we do when we lead someone to Christ we have to be as convincing as we can be. This is why we can't do it alone because God is who tells us to preach to them. He leads us to those who need to hear and He uses us to convince them. Like what I'm trying so hard to do here. I want to convince you of the truth.
You have to stick to the fundamentals of scripture to understand it. The moment you began to think you had something to do with your own Salvation. You left the truth behind and you have reason to boast that you helped with your own Salvation. Salvation is all of God.
MB

I don't deny Scripture, I deny the faulty translation you have The correct rendering of that passage is faith IN Christ...not the faith OF Christ. What does Christ need faith for, He is God Faith is the substance of what is hoped for, the things not seen. Are you an open theist?

 

[TCGreek]

NT scholars and translators have been wrestling with whether to translate it "faith in Christ" or "the faithfulness of Christ."

The Greek construction can go either way.

There is nothing faulty about this.

Even Christ had to learn obedience (Heb 5:8, 9).

It was Christ obedience to God's Law why we are able to be declared righteous in him (Rom 8:3-4).

 

[Allan]

True, but we are not save by 'the faith that Christ had' or the faith the Christ excersized.

His learning obedience is not His growing in faith nor can it correlated to such. Christ was God and thus never needing faith- He is God. He walked in absolute unity with the Father not because He had faith but because of who He was He walked faithfully or obediently and in accordance with the Will of the Father.

 

[MB]

I don't deny Scripture, I deny the faulty translation you have The correct rendering of that passage is faith IN Christ...not the faith OF Christ. What does Christ need faith for, He is God

That doesn't make any sense. a faithless god. My God is faith full not faith less
Psa 89:8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
quote=webdog]
Faith is the substance of what is hoped for, the things not seen. Are you an open theist?
[/quote]
No! are you? For man it is but for God faith is something much different
Why would you change scripture to make it say "in Christ" instead "of Christ" I know all about the NASV and it's Catholic origin
If you'll look at the scripture you'll see what wouldn't make any sense if it were "in Christ"
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The word "in" is only found where it says "even we have believed in Christ"
The Greek doesn't say we are justified by the faith in Jesus Christ.
Your Bible has falsely placed the word "in", in this verse where there was no such word. Actually neither "of" or "in" was in that position but the word "of" makes more sense than in. Because Salvation is all of God we can't have it by our own works. If you are saved or justified by your faith in Jesus Christ you are your own co-redeemer.
Maybe you can show how you can prove from scripture that you can help save your self to be saved.
What I want to really know is how is what you believe any different that JM's Lord ship Salvation? When you're still doing something to have something else. This make you deserving somehow?
MB

 

[webdog]

What doesn't make sense is a God that has faith. That's open theism. As TCG pointed out, "faith in Christ" is a viable option, and the only option that makes sense, IMO.

The Greek doesn't say we are justified by the faith in Jesus Christ.

This is the entire message of the Bible!

Because Salvation is all of God we can't have it by our own works. If you are saved or justified by your faith in Jesus Christ you are your own co-redeemer.

I didn't think you were a calvinist Since Eph. 2:8-9 states faith is NOT a work, I agree salvation is not by works, but it is by faith. Since I AM justified by my faith in Christ, I never could understand the calvinist strawman that I am somehow a co-redeemer. It's like at Christmas when I receive a gift, by me taking the gift I am a co-giver of the gift. Absolutely ludicrous.

What I want to really know is how is what you believe any different that JM's Lord ship Salvation?

Red Herring. If you want to discuss LS, and my view as opposed to it, there are plenty of threads for that.

When you're still doing something to have something else. This make you deserving somehow?

My signature says it all "Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning".

 

[JustChristian]

Just a quick journey through the web it states that a calvanist would view it in this order:



and a armenian would view it this way

I would modify the Arminian view or perhaps I should offer a third view since I don't consider myself an Arminian. I believe that the Holy Spirit is always present in the salvation experience. Therefore, I would suggest.

1) Working of the Holy Spirit, 2) Preaching/hearing the gospel, 3) faith, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification

 

[TCGreek]

True, but we are not save by 'the faith that Christ had' or the faith the Christ excersized.

His learning obedience is not His growing in faith nor can it correlated to such. Christ was God and thus never needing faith- He is God. He walked in absolute unity with the Father not because He had faith but because of who He was He walked faithfully or obediently and in accordance with the Will of the Father.

Allan, the bolded section is what I believe too.

Please don't forget that if it wasn't for the faithful obedience of Jesus to the will of the Father, none would be saved.

So when we place our faith in Jesus to save us, it is his righteousness that we received and are thereby declared to be in right standing with the Father.

 

[TCGreek]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The word "in" is only found where it says "even we have believed in Christ"
The Greek doesn't say we are justified by the faith in Jesus Christ.
Your Bible has falsely placed the word "in", in this verse where there was no such word. Actually neither "of" or "in" was in that position but the word "of" makes more sense than in. Because Salvation is all of God we can't have it by our own works. If you are saved or justified by your faith in Jesus Christ you are your own co-redeemer.
MB

MB,

Because Jesus is the object of our faith, it is necessary for translators to translate the Greek construction as "through faith in Jesus Christ."

"In" is clearly legitimate and warranted by the Greek construction.