Ordo Salutis

[skypair]

So when we place our faith in Jesus to save us, it is his righteousness that we received and are thereby declared to be in right standing with the Father.

Is this an admission of "synergy" in the "doctrines of grace?" :laugh:

You are absolutely right! Right standing with God ("reconciled [saved] by His death") and given into the kingdom of Christ ("saved by His life" if we follow Him).

skypair

 

[MB]

What doesn't make sense is a God that has faith. That's open theism. As TCG pointed out, "faith in Christ" is a viable option, and the only option that makes sense, IMO.
This is the entire message of the Bible!

The entire message of the Bible is not a choice to believe but is light. We can choose to avoid the light as many do or, we can bask in it. When the light is shown on us, we have a choice this is true but, it is only to avoid it. The light is already on us because He shines it on us. We did not choose that the light shine on us but we can stop it by hiding in the darkness.
To choose the light would mean that Salvation would be because you saught it out and man doesn't do that because with out the light ever being shown on man to begin with he doesn't know to seek it. Christ is the Word. The light of the world. The choice is never that the light be shown on us but is a choice to avoid it.

I didn't think you were a calvinist Since Eph. 2:8-9 states faith is NOT a work, I agree salvation is not by works, but it is by faith.

Faith isn't a work of our selves it's a work of God
Faith is believing and trusting in God and is the results of the work of God.
When you began to believe, it was because, of what you were being told. You were being told it by God through someone like a preacher. This is God giving you faith in HimSelf because we obtain faith from the hearing of the word.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Where did you get the faith from?


When some pharisee's asked Christ this below. They wanted to know how to heal and feed thousands with a few loaves and a few fish,
like Christ did. They wanted to know how to work miracles
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Amazed no doubt they then wanted to know how to believe and asked.
Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Even they understood that it was God who was responsible for anyone's belief. They realized they had to be convinced by the one doing the convincing.
How is it we have faith? we have it because faith is given to us through hearing the word of God. It is also strengthened the same way. We recognize truth, but we do not decide it is truth. Which is why we have the saying "the truth hurts" We may not always want to believe it but we still know it's true when we hear it. This is knowing the truth in unrighteousness we know it's true but we still will not give up the sin because of it.

Since I AM justified by my faith in Christ, I never could understand the calvinist strawman that I am somehow a co-redeemer. It's like at Christmas when I receive a gift, by me taking the gift I am a co-giver of the gift. Absolutely ludicrous.

Acceptance is not you doing anything to receive it. Taking is you doing something to get it. Salvation is undeserved
We can't be justified by anything we do this what I'm trying to get you to see. We are justified by the righteousness of Christ. It was He who died for our sins. it is He who is the Word from the beginning with out which you could never have believed in the first place. My point is when we give an account of our lives before the Lord we will be there because of Christ and what He did for us. It's because of His righteousness that the Father will say well done thou good and faithfull servant. We wear His righteousness not our own. This include's His faithfulness because only His is righteous and pure. My faith has wholes in it, it is ragged and dirty and not worthy of Salvation. My faith as well as everyone elses cannot do it which is why the Law never saved anyone.
We are made worthy of Salvation by the righteousness of Christ which is why we have to submit to Him.

Red Herring. If you want to discuss LS, and my view as opposed to it, there are plenty of threads for that.

I know that there are Webdog but I don't see any difference between doing something to have Salvation and doing something to have Salvation.

My signature says it all "Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning".

Earning is doing; the same as effort is.
Jesus Christ is Lord of my life not because of my efforts but because of His works. He is Lord of my life because He made it so, and I give Him all the glory for it.
Saving me; the Lord must have had doubts about me. I was so full of sin. He must have drawn back and took a real long look at me knowing the kind of person I had become is such a short time. There wasn't anything in me that deserved such a favor, not even effort. He first gave me the knowing of His word and by doing so I recognized the truth of it. It is so undeniably true it is absolute. Knowing the truth yes I began to believe it. I could not help my self from believing it because it rang so true. Then yes I began to have hope in it that I to, may be saved. Saved inspite of who I had become. Saved even though I didn't deserve it. The reason not being that I had done something but because He gifted me with it all.
If I were Christ I would have condemned me to hell ever lasting. I still do not deserve it.
MB

 

[MB]

MB,

Because Jesus is the object of our faith, it is necessary for translators to translate the Greek construction as "through faith in Jesus Christ."

"In" is clearly legitimate and warranted by the Greek construction.

TC
I have no doubt that you know more than I do about the Greek Language. Since you do I ask you this. If it was intended to read faith in Christ. Why does it say that only when it is refferring to our believing as in the underlined.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

When it says this here I can't help but understand that Paul is not repeating himself but is speaking of our faith when previously he was speaking of a justifying faith. Then right after speaking of our own faith he speaks of the justifying faith once more. Who's faith are we justified by. Our own? If so then how is it justification can be had by something we do? When we all know we are justified by the righteousness of Christ. Isn't it His righteousness we wear or is it our own?.

It isn't like the word "in" didn't exist in Greek. Since it is when speaking of our own faith.
If it is our own faith we are justified by. Then it only seems reasonable we can boast of how we are justified by our own faith. We then wind up being our own co-redeemer. With out justification there is no Salvation.
MB

 

[webdog]

The entire message of the Bible is not a choice to believe but is light. We can choose to avoid the light as many do or, we can bask in it. When the light is shown on us, we have a choice this is true but, it is only to avoid it. The light is already on us because He shines it on us. We did not choose that the light shine on us but we can stop it by hiding in the darkness.
To choose the light would mean that Salvation would be because you saught it out and man doesn't do that because with out the light ever being shown on man to begin with he doesn't know to seek it. Christ is the Word. The light of the world. The choice is never that the light be shown on us but is a choice to avoid it.

Yes, the Bible is light...but the message is Truth. Faith in Christ is Truth...faith OF Christ is not.

Faith isn't a work of our selves it's a work of God
Faith is believing and trusting in God and is the results of the work of God.
When you began to believe, it was because, of what you were being told. You were being told it by God through someone like a preacher. This is God giving you faith in HimSelf because we obtain faith from the hearing of the word.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Where did you get the faith from?

Since God created all men with the ability to have faith, I will agree with you to that extent. However, the object of our faith is a gift (what "that" is referencing back to in Eph. 2:8-9, the whole of salvaiton "by grace through faith")...not faith itself. If faith is a gift, why does God give the reprobate a faulty gift?

Acceptance is not you doing anything to receive it. Taking is you doing something to get it. Salvation is undeserved

If I accept, or take a gift...what is the difference?

We can't be justified by anything we do this what I'm trying to get you to see. We are justified by the righteousness of Christ.

You are telling half the story, MB. We are justified by the righteousness of Christ...AND...faith IN Him.

We wear His righteousness not our own. This include's His faithfulness because only His is righteous and pure. My faith has wholes in it, it is ragged and dirty and not worthy of Salvation. My faith as well as everyone elses cannot do it which is why the Law never saved anyone.

If our faith is in Christ, it IS whole! It IS worthy of salvation! The reason the Law never saved anyone is due to the fact nobody could keep it. Faith is faith. There are no separate "brands" of faith in Scripture. There is no "saving faith", but a faith that saves.

I know that there are Webdog but I don't see any difference between doing something to have Salvation and doing something to have Salvation.

...but faith is NOT a work. Commitment to not sin IS a work. Huge difference.

Earning is doing; the same as effort is.

Wrong. Earning is payment. Faith does take effort to believe that Jesus is who He says He is. Salvation is not a payment for faith.

 

[MB]

Yes, the Bible is light...but the message is Truth. Faith in Christ is Truth...faith OF Christ is not.

If Christ had no faith why did he cry out "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?" Faith isn't only hope. Faith is also believing in God and trusting Him. Jesus Christ trusted His Father faithfully. He had perfect faith beyond anything you or I am capable of.

Since God created all men with the ability to have faith, I will agree with you to that extent. However, the object of our faith is a gift (what "that" is referencing back to in Eph. 2:8-9, the whole of salvaiton "by grace through faith")...not faith itself. If faith is a gift, why does God give the reprobate a faulty gift?

You don't believe faith comes from hearing the gospel? What about Rom 10:17
The reprobate doesn't have faith in Christ which is why he is a reprobate. He doesn't listen to the gospel. He never gives it a chance to give him faith. he stops it, by rebelling.

If I accept, or take a gift...what is the difference?

Take and receive are two different things. To take something implies theft. it implies you had to do something to get it. When you take it you have to do something to get it. When you receive, it's delivered to you. You didn't have it before, but you have it now. The only thing you can do is reject it. You didn't have to do a thing for it.

You are telling half the story, MB. We are justified by the righteousness of Christ...AND...faith IN Him.
[\quote]
Not so;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If it were our faith, it would be of our selves. It's a gift a free gift of Salvation. Nothing is required. You do not take it, you receive it. The only way you can stop it is to rebel.

If our faith is in Christ, it IS whole! It IS worthy of salvation!

No one is worthy and you know it. Christ said our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Rags are not whole thats why they are called rags.

The reason the Law never saved anyone is due to the fact nobody could keep it. Faith is faith. There are no separate "brands" of faith in Scripture. There is no "saving faith", but a faith that saves.
...but faith is NOT a work. Commitment to not sin IS a work. Huge difference.
[\quote]

There is no faith that saves and what is more scripture never says our faith saves. You said "no one could keep the Law" True and no one can keep a perfect faith deserving of Salvation that is of themselves. Which is why we are kept by God.

Wrong. Earning is payment. Faith does take effort to believe that Jesus is who He says He is. Salvation is not a payment for faith.

It is, if it's a required thing to have and it's yours alone as you so proudly claim.
You don't see that you wouldn't have any faith if it weren't for Christ, the Word.
Your convinced that you decided to have faith and you didn't. You were convinced of the truth or you never would have had faith to begin with. Faith comes from hearing the gospel it does not come from you.
Paul wrote;
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are what we are in Christ because we are His workmanship. It doesn't say our's.
MB

 

[webdog]

If Christ had no faith why did he cry out "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?" Faith isn't only hope. Faith is also believing in God and trusting Him. Jesus Christ trusted His Father faithfully. He had perfect faith beyond anything you or I am capable of.

How are you connecting what Christ said on the cross to faith? It really doesn't make sense to me...

You don't believe faith comes from hearing the gospel? What about Rom 10:17
The reprobate doesn't have faith in Christ which is why he is a reprobate. He doesn't listen to the gospel. He never gives it a chance to give him faith. he stops it, by rebelling.

Faith in Christ comes from hearing the Gospel. Faith is a human trait that all humans posses.

Take and receive are two different things. To take something implies theft. it implies you had to do something to get it. When you take it you have to do something to get it. When you receive, it's delivered to you. You didn't have it before, but you have it now. The only thing you can do is reject it. You didn't have to do a thing for it.

You're losing me, MB :laugh: If someone says "here's a gift, take it" I'm not stealing it or earning it by "taking" it.

There is no faith that saves and what is more scripture never says our faith saves.

You can't be serious!

Not so;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If it were our faith, it would be of our selves. It's a gift a free gift of Salvation. Nothing is required. You do not take it, you receive it. The only way you can stop it is to rebel.

The above line you bolded is in reference to the whole of salvation...not faith. The fact that we are saved by grace through faith is a gift, as there is no way in ourselves we could ever be saved.

 

[Rippon]

Since God created all men with the ability to have faith ...


If faith is a gift,why does God give the reprobate a faulty gift?

Wrong.God didn't create people with the "ability to have faith". God gives faith to His elect.It's not an indiscriminate gift given to everyone.

The reprobate do not receive faith from God.Ony the elect receive faith from God.If one believes that faith is a gift to His elect -- why would you say that God gives the reprobate a faulty gift?Your reasoning is unreasonable.

 

[Rippon]

Faith in Christ comes from hearing the Gospel. Faith is a human trait that all humans posses.

Nope,it certainly isn't.All do not have saving faith which God gives to His elect only.

You are reducing biblical faith down to zero.We are not discussing the kind of faith which one has when sitting in a chair hoping that the chair will bear the weight.

 

[Amy.G]

Nope,it certainly isn't.All do not have saving faith which God gives to His elect only.

You are reducing biblical faith down to zero.We are not discussing the kind of faith which one has when sitting in a chair hoping that the chair will bear the weight.

Faith is faith is faith. It is the object of our faith that brings salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

Is this an admission of "synergy" in the "doctrines of grace?" :laugh:

You are absolutely right! Right standing with God ("reconciled [saved] by His death") and given into the kingdom of Christ ("saved by His life" if we follow Him).

skypair

Monergism all the way. :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Nope,it certainly isn't.All do not have saving faith which God gives to His elect only.

You are reducing biblical faith down to zero.We are not discussing the kind of faith which one has when sitting in a chair hoping that the chair will bear the weight.

...yet, no Scirpture states this. Plenty Scriptures talk about "your faith", though.

 

[webdog]

Nope,it certainly isn't.All do not have saving faith which God gives to His elect only.

You are reducing biblical faith down to zero.We are not discussing the kind of faith which one has when sitting in a chair hoping that the chair will bear the weight.

It is the same faith. You cannot support biblically a separate "saving faith"...it is not there.

 

[TCGreek]

TC
I have no doubt that you know more than I do about the Greek Language. Since you do I ask you this. If it was intended to read faith in Christ. Why does it say that only when it is refferring to our believing as in the underlined.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

MB, Paul is speaking in two different ways here:

1. He outlines a general truth of how peoplare justified;

2. And then the fact that he himself and those with him were justified. Note the use of "we."

Paul is quite stylistic is his Greek. Note for example that he says God justifies the Jews "by faith," and then the Gentiles "through faith."

Two different Greek prepositions but they mean the same thing here.

When it says this here I can't help but understand that Paul is not repeating himself but is speaking of our faith when previously he was speaking of a justifying faith. Then right after speaking of our own faith he speaks of the justifying faith once more. Who's faith are we justified by. Our own? If so then how is it justification can be had by something we do? When we all know we are justified by the righteousness of Christ. Isn't it His righteousness we wear or is it our own?.

Paul is not repeating himself. He speaks of a general through, and then how he and others have come to experience it.

It isn't like the word "in" didn't exist in Greek. Since it is when speaking of our own faith.
If it is our own faith we are justified by. Then it only seems reasonable we can boast of how we are justified by our own faith. We then wind up being our own co-redeemer. With out justification there is no Salvation.
MB

Paul wrote in shorthand all the time.

Does Eph 2:8-9 make us co-redeemers?

TCG

 

[Rippon]

...yet, no Scirpture states this. Plenty Scriptures talk about "your faith", though.

You're saying that all have saving faith?! Nonsense.

Yes,the Bible speaks of "your faith".That's when believers,and believers only are being referenced.

 

[Allan]

Faith is faith is faith. It is the object of our faith that brings salvation.

Amen sister!


I find it strange that the reformed faith will acknowledge that man can know what is or are good things (commonly good) and even choose to do 'good' things (though that good has no righteous or eternal merit) - like in Mat 7:11 - Thus man will not just fulfill the most horrible evils continually but will and can choose to do both good things and evil things, but even his good is marred by his sin. (I'm not disputing this aspect - but man can choose to even do good things in his depraved state)

Now this good, again, is not anything meritorious but even Jesus shows it can be seen comparitively to that action which God agrees with even though it marred by their sin. However, when man is moved upon by the Spirit of God revealing truth and convicting, they then state that man is 'un-able' to even concieve of believing.. and this because man has no 'special type' of faith because he is Totally Depraved. I agree that man is unable to do anything righteously good (works) but that does not negate the fact that man can believe God even in a depraved state when the Spirit of God reveals and convicts him of sin and righteousness. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation through the ministering (revealing and convicting) of the Holy Spirit toward the world. Man can choose and does so, even in his depraved state, but only as far as he knows/understands. Even in his depraved state man can choose the lesser of two evils as even agreed by the Reformers. Then have God bring revelation and conviction of truth to that man; can he not then also choose the truth or the lie?

Faith has no value of itself but, as you stated Amy, it is the object of our faith that gives said faith any eternal value what-so-ever.

Besides, if man were regenerate and therefore made new and all his desires and being is turn toward God, man sin marred faith would also be renewed just as his spirit, heart, and mind has been - so there would be no need to 'give' some special type of faith as that man has already been 're-newed'. Unless one would hold that man was not totally renewed or born again but only partially or half-way regenerate.

 

[Allan]

MB, Paul is speaking in two different ways here:

1. He outlines a general truth of how peoplare justified;

2. And then the fact that he himself and those with him were justified. Note the use of "we."

Paul is quite stylistic is his Greek. Note for example that he says God justifies the Jews "by faith," and then the Gentiles "through faith."

Two different Greek prepositions but they mean the same thing here.



Paul is not repeating himself. He speaks of a general through, and then how he and others have come to experience it.



Paul wrote in shorthand all the time.

Does Eph 2:8-9 make us co-redeemers?

TCG

I agree with you here TCG... well put. :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

It is the same faith. You cannot support biblically a separate "saving faith"...it is not there.

Having faith in a chair supporting your weight is the same kind of thing as having saving faith in Christ?! Please,that's more bunk than I can handle this afternoon.

 

[webdog]

You're saying that all have saving faith?! Nonsense.

Yes,the Bible speaks of "your faith".That's when believers,and believers only are being referenced.

Strawman...I never said that. Deal with what I actually say.

 

[webdog]

Having faith in a chair supporting your weight is the same kind of thing as having saving faith in Christ?! Please,that's more bunk than I can handle this afternoon.

When discussing what faith is...it is not "bunk". There is nothing mystical about faith. As Amy stated, it is the OBJECT of our faith that makes a difference. I don't exercise faith in Christ when jumping out of a plane, I exercise faith in the parachute. Likewise, I don't have faith in the parachute when I'm dealing with my eternal state, I have faith in Christ.

 

[Rippon]

Plenty Scriptures talk about "your faith", though.

When the Scriptures speak of "your faith" -- believers only are being referenced.True or false?