Ordo Salutis

[Amy.G]

LOL! I know you worked so hard for your Salvation.:laugh:
You can believe you are your own co-redeemer if you want that's up to you. I've shown that Salvation is all of God. I can't make you believe it. You can now boast about your self all you want to. All I've said about Eph 2:8-9 is exactly what it says.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

All three of things are a gift of God. He didn't have to show favor which is grace. He didn't have to give us the gospel by which we receive faith in hearing it preached. He also doesn't have to give us Salvation. I know this is true because it isn't of my self as the verse says.
It wasn't because I added anything.
In;
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Againg we are given to believe in Him. Given suggest we received a gift to believe. Belief in Christ is given. You didn't dream it up on your own.
MB

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We are saved by grace, God's grace toward us, having nothing to do with my works.

We receive this grace through OUR faith. We must believe or be condemned, die in our sins. I refer you to Jesus' words in John 3:18.

Salvation is a GIFT of God. You cannot earn it.

Faith is not the gift, salvation is the gift. But it can only be received through faith.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We are saved by grace, God's grace toward us, having nothing to do with my works.

We receive this grace through OUR faith. We must believe or be condemned, die in our sins. I refer you to Jesus' words in John 3:18.

Salvation is a GIFT of God. You cannot earn it.

Faith is not the gift, salvation is the gift. But it can only be received through faith.

Gratias Eta Est.

 

[webdog]

LOL! I know you worked so hard for your Salvation.:laugh:
You can believe you are your own co-redeemer if you want that's up to you. I've shown that Salvation is all of God. I can't make you believe it. You can now boast about your self all you want to. All I've said about Eph 2:8-9 is exactly what it says.

MB, you can't make me believe that which isn't true. For the future, please quit with the "your own co-redeemer" ad hominems...they are quite old. You have some rather calvinistic views for someone who claims not to be a calvinist. Me thinks you are confused by the debate, and are pulling what you like from both sides. If they don't add up, you have a mixed up theology.

Like I have said, and will say this last time...I have nothing to boast about, and I'm in no way a co-redeemer. That is the most absurd argument made here on the BB, and is quite foolish. The one receiving the gift NEVER can take credit for ANY part of the gift giver's intent on giving the gift, and ultimately the gift being given. To state such is beyond comprehension.

Here's a calvinist's (Barnes, Robartson) take on Eph. 2:8-9. Digest on it for a while...
Eph 2:8
For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God’s part, "faith" ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
For by grace are ye saved - By mere favor. It is not by your Own merit; it is not because you have any claim. This is a favorite doctrine with Paul, as it is with all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity; compare the notes at Rom_1:7; Rom_3:24, note.
Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing; see the notes at Rom_1:17; Rom_4:16, note.
And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" (τοῦτο touto) refers to "faith" (πίστις pistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.

 

[TCGreek]

Hi TC;
Thankyou for your input.

Quite the opposite, it says it isn't our faith or anything we do. It says the whole process is a free gift from faith to Salvation.
MB

But we have to exercise our faith, and this seems to be equaled to co-redeemer in your thinking.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about your position.

 

[MB]

MB, you can't make me believe that which isn't true. For the future, please quit with the "your own co-redeemer" ad hominems...they are quite old. You have some rather calvinistic views for someone who claims not to be a calvinist. Me thinks you are confused by the debate, and are pulling what you like from both sides. If they don't add up, you have a mixed up theology.

What makes it wrong when the same thing isn't wrong for you?

Like I have said, and will say this last time...I have nothing to boast about, and I'm in no way a co-redeemer. That is the most absurd argument made here on the BB, and is quite foolish. The one receiving the gift NEVER can take credit for ANY part of the gift giver's intent on giving the gift, and ultimately the gift being given. To state such is beyond comprehension.

Well you did. This is from your post #84

"If our faith is in Christ, it IS whole! It IS worthy of salvation!"

Worthy! Really!

Here's a calvinist's (Barnes, Robartson) take on Eph. 2:8-9. Digest on it for a while...
Eph 2:8
For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God’s part, "faith" ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
For by grace are ye saved - By mere favor. It is not by your Own merit; it is not because you have any claim. This is a favorite doctrine with Paul, as it is with all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity; compare the notes at Rom_1:7; Rom_3:24, note.
Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing; see the notes at Rom_1:17; Rom_4:16, note.
And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτοtouto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστιςpistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" (τοῦτοtouto) refers to "faith" (πίστιςpistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.

But I'm not a Calvinist. Every one of them will tell you this does not line up with Calvinism because Salvation can be rejected.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Amy;

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We are saved by grace, God's grace toward us, having nothing to do with my works.

We receive this grace through OUR faith. We must believe or be condemned, die in our sins. I refer you to Jesus' words in John 3:18.

Salvation is a GIFT of God. You cannot earn it.

Faith is not the gift, salvation is the gift. But it can only be received through faith.

How did you get your faith? Did you just decide to have it? Didn't you receive it by hearing the gospel? Rom 10:17 My point is that, because you received it from hearing God's word faith isn't of your self but of the One who convinced you to believe and have faith. That would be the Holy Spirit working through the one preaching it to you.
MB

 

[MB]

But we have to exercise our faith, and this seems to be equaled to co-redeemer in your thinking.

If we do what's the reason? Why do we ever trust in a being that we have never seen. Isn't it because we are convinced of Him and His trust worthiness? Then I have to ask who convinced you. Wasn't it God through the preaching of the word. With The holy Spirit working to convince you or anyone for that matter. Are you convinced because you decided to be. Or were you convinced because of the work of the one convincing you?
A result is far different than a decision.

Then last but not least. Was it or not God who began the whole process with in us, when He first drawed us?

Please correct me if I'm wrong about your position.

I don't see a result, of an action, as a decision. I see God as an effective being when rebellion isn't in the way. Man has a choice though not of Christ but, to stay in the darkness or not Jn 3. We don't choose Christ, we have been chosen by God.
Thus Salvation is all of God. If it were a decision instead of a result then it wouldn't be..
This isn't being dragged off and saved against your will as webdog suggest. Man has freewill but his freewill isn't capable of saving Him.


MB

 

[MB]

Man is willing if the man is saved but the man cannot save himself by his will.
When man hears the gospel he has to be willing to listen.
MB

 

[TCGreek]

If we do what's the reason? Why do we ever trust in a being that we have never seen. Isn't it because we are convinced of Him and His trust worthiness? Then I have to ask who convinced you. Wasn't it God through the preaching of the word. With The holy Spirit working to convince you or anyone for that matter. Are you convinced because you decided to be. Or were you convinced because of the work of the one convincing you?
A result is far different than a decision.

Paul gives us the reason for exercising our faith: it is to be saved (Eph 2:8).

Then last but not least. Was it or not God who began the whole process with in us, when He first drawed us?

I affirm the initial call of God to salvation.

I don't see a result, of an action, as a decision. I see God as an effective being when rebellion isn't in the way. Man has a choice though not of Christ but, to stay in the darkness or not Jn 3. We don't choose Christ, we have been chosen by God.
Thus Salvation is all of God. If it were a decision instead of a result then it wouldn't be..
This isn't being dragged off and saved against your will as webdog suggest. Man has freewill but his freewill isn't capable of saving Him.

Even if God draws people and open their hearts to respond to him, these people must exercise their volition (John 6:65; Acts 16:14).

 

[DHK]

Hi Amy;


How did you get your faith? Did you just decide to have it? Didn't you receive it by hearing the gospel? Rom 10:17 My point is that, because you received it from hearing God's word faith isn't of your self but of the One who convinced you to believe and have faith. That would be the Holy Spirit working through the one preaching it to you.
MB

I'm not Amy, but let me answer that for you.
"How did I get my faith? Did you just decide to have it?"

The answer is yes, I just decided to have it; no one gave it to me. As an unbeliever it was not God that gave me faith. God only gives faith after one becomes saved. Everyone has faith. We exercise faith in a variety of ways.
If I want to take a cab to the inner city, I will ask the driver if he will do so. If he says he will, I put my faith in that driver that he will take me where I ask me, and not to some rural area where he will rob me and leave me for dead. I trust him to be honest. I take him at his word. I have faith in him.

I was saved as an adult and grew up in a religion where I never heard the gospel. When the gospel message was first presented to me I had to be convinced that this man (Christ) died personally for me. I had heard the facts before, but never knew that it was for me that he died. What was the evidence? I was taken to the Word of God. How did I know it was true? By the testimony of the one who died and rose again, proving himself to be deity; for his resurrection could not be denied.
It was also verified by the witness of many changed lives that I had witnessed, a change that could only be accounted for by the change that Christ alone would make by saving them.

I took all of this evidence in consideration. Then I invited Christ to be my Saviour. I put MY faith in Him, and His saving work on the cross; just as I put my faith in that cab driver to get me to the right destination. There is no difference in the nature of the faith. Faith is confidence, trust, belief. It didn't come from God. It had to come from me, based on the facts, this time the facts of the Word of God.
It wasn't a blind faith. It was a faith based on the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Certainly, the Holy Spirit was there to convict of sin; but it was not the faith of the Holy Spirit.

I did not receive faith by hearing the gospel. That is not what that verse teaches.
Romans 10:16-18 But they were not all obedient to the good tidings, for Isaiah saith, `Lord, who did give credence to our report?'
17 so then the faith is by a report, and the report through a saying of God,
18 but I say, Did they not hear? yes, indeed--`to all the earth their voice went forth, and to the ends of the habitable world their sayings.' (Young's Literal)

The verse you use is in the context of the nation of Israel.
It is "the faith" and refers to a report. Did all Israel hear about it? Yes they did. The faith is by a report, and it went throughout their land. Kind of different than what our KJV implies isn't it?

Faith is confidence in the word of another.
The more you get to know and understand that person, the more faith or confidence you will be able to put in that person. Think of a marriage. The longer a couple is married, the more they trust each other, the greater they know each other. Their faith in each other grows. So it is with Christ. Spend time with him in prayer, and in his word and your faith will grow proportionately.

But God does not give one faith to be saved. I do not find that teaching in the Bible.

 

[Allan]

ReformedBaptist,

I don't want this post to disappear since it corrisponds the earlier conversation we were having regarding the OP...

Here is my last post concerning it:


Thanks.

Trying to keep it from getting lost in the crowd

And since 'this' is dealing with the OP , it is not (or at least should not) be considered spamming as I am trying to keep the thread on topic.

Nothing wrong with side bars though :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

I just decided to have it; no one gave it to me. As an unbeliever it was not God that gave me faith. God only gives faith after one becomes saved. Everyone has faith.


But God does not give one faith to be saved. I do not find that teaching in the Bible.

More of the same Bible-denying statements from you DHK.May the Lord open your eyes.

 

[DHK]

More of the same Bible-denying statements from you DHK.May the Lord open your eyes.

Instead of making a sanctimonious and ungodly rant, I would kindly request that you refute my position with Scripture. The nature of your remarks seems to indicate that you cannot.

 

[Rippon]

Instead of making a sanctimonious and ungodly rant, I would kindly request that you refute my position with Scripture. The nature of your remarks seems to indicate that you cannot.

I really don't think a brief 15 words can be characterized as a rant.My objection to your quotes still stands.For you to say my words were ungodly says more about you than me.

I am pressed for time.I'll deal with one item here.You said :"Everyone has faith." Nope. In 2 Thess.3:2 :"And pray that we that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people,for not everyone has faith."

"But,but,but..." But nothing.The Bible says that not everyone has faith despite your feeble protestations.

 

[Rippon]

I do have some extra time after all.

You had said that God doesn't give faith to be saved.You just decided to have it;no one gave it to you.Further,you can't seem to find it in the Bible.

All of those sentiments are reprehensible.Some Bible refutations :

Acts 13:48 :"When the Gentiles heard this,they were glad and honored the word of the Lord;and all those who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Acts 16:14 :"One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia,a dealer in purple cloth.She wasa worshipper of God.The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

Acts 18:27 :"When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia,the believers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him.When he arrived,he was a great help to those who by grace had believed."

Eph.2:8,9 :"For it is by grace you have been saved ,through faith -- and this is not from yourselves,it is the gift of God --not by works,so that no one can boast."

Phil.1:29 :"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him,but also to suffer for him"

God also gives repentance as demonstrated in Acts 5:31,11:18;2 Tim.2:25.

So,far from faith being a mere thing you decided to have -- it is a gift from God.Attribute it to the Lord -- not your feeble self.

 

[webdog]

I really don't think a brief 15 words can be characterized as a rant.My objection to your quotes still stands.For you to say my words were ungodly says more about you than me.

I am pressed for time.I'll deal with one item here.You said :"Everyone has faith." Nope. In 2 Thess.3:2 :"And pray that we that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people,for not everyone has faith."

"But,but,but..." But nothing.The Bible says that not everyone has faith despite your feeble protestations.

That's elementary. It's a given that everyone doesn't have faith in Christ...exactly what that verse states. Those are the wicked and evil people. Come on, you can do better than that, no?

 

[DHK]

I do have some extra time after all.

You had said that God doesn't give faith to be saved.You just decided to have it;no one gave it to you.Further,you can't seem to find it in the Bible.

All of those sentiments are reprehensible.Some Bible refutations :

Acts 13:48 :"When the Gentiles heard this,they were glad and honored the word of the Lord;and all those who were appointed for eternal life believed."

And so? I also believed. So God knew about it ahead of time (it was appointed); what difference does that make? It was still my faith.

Acts 16:14 :"One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia,a dealer in purple cloth.She wasa worshipper of God.The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

The Lord opened her heart. That speaks of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the Lord giving her faith. The faith was hers to believe on Christ.

Acts 18:27 :"When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia,the believers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him.When he arrived,he was a great help to those who by grace had believed."

Past tense. I also "had believed" when my friends arrived.

Eph.2:8,9 :"For it is by grace you have been saved ,through faith -- and this is not from yourselves,it is the gift of God --not by works,so that no one can boast."

My personal belief is that it refers to salvation in general or eternal life, as it says in Romans 6:23 "for the gift of God is eternal life"
But even if I grant you the benefit of the doubt, I clearly said in my post that God gives faith only to believers. Paul is talking to believers here. "It is by grace that you have been saved not will be saved.

Phil.1:29 :"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him,but also to suffer for him"

This is the will of God: to believe on Christ. I believed. The belief or faith was mine.

So,far from faith being a mere thing you decided to have -- it is a gift from God.Attribute it to the Lord -- not your feeble self.

You have not demonstrated that to be the case at all. You assert something and then are not able to prove. It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. So in the future if you will be edited when I see the ungodly personal attacks.

 

[Rippon]

So God knew about it ahead of time (it was appointed); what difference does that make?

God knowing ahead of time does not = appointed.Appointed is decreed or ordained.Knowing something ahead of time is completely different.As a matter of fact it is a lessening of God.
You really need to study Acts 13:48 a lot more.
_______________________________________________________________



The Lord opened her heart. That speaks of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the Lord giving her faith. The faith was hers to believe on Christ.
[/quote]

Could Lydia have believed on her own had her heart not been opened by the Lord?Of course not.Is Lydia's experience an isolated one?No.All of us,if we're believers have had the Lord open our hearts.It was once hard,then He softened it.He implanted faith to us.

___________________________________________________________



My personal belief is that it refers to salvation in general or eternal life, as it says in Romans 6:23 "for the gift of God is eternal life"
But even if I grant you the benefit of the doubt, I clearly said in my post that God gives faith only to believers. Paul is talking to believers here. "It is by grace that you have been saved not will be saved.
[/quote]

"God gives faith to believers".LOL.Belief is faith.They do not acquire it all on their own.By His grace folks are saved.
____________________________________________________________

This is the will of God: to believe on Christ. I believed. The belief or faith was mine.
[/quote]

A self-made man.Your all-powerful will in action.
_____________________________________________________________

You have not demonstrated that to be the case at all. You assert something and then are not able to prove. It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. So in the future if you will be edited when I see the ungodly personal attacks.[/quote]

You danced around all the verses I presented.You willfully ignore their import.

You are one to talk DHK.In the past you have called me a coward.You have said:"Maybe you are worshipping the wrong God?" You have repeatedly said terribly false things about what Calvinists hold.You have been corrected numerous times,but it doesn't dissuade you.You are the one in need of an editor my friend.

 

[DHK]

God knowing ahead of time does not = appointed.Appointed is decreed or ordained.Knowing something ahead of time is completely different.As a matter of fact it is a lessening of God.
You really need to study Acts 13:48 a lot more.{/quote]
I don't need to study it more.
Lydia believed. It is plain and simple. She, of her own accord put her in Christ. It is that simple.

The Lord opened her heart. That speaks of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the Lord giving her faith. The faith was hers to believe on Christ.

Could Lydia have believed on her own had her heart not been opened by the Lord?Of course not.Is Lydia's experience an isolated one?No.All of us,if we're believers have had the Lord open our hearts.It was once hard,then He softened it.He implanted faith to us.

I never said anything different. I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved. The first paragraph here are my words. It was still Lydia that put her faith in the Lord. Those facts are not changed.

My personal belief is that it refers to salvation in general or eternal life, as it says in Romans 6:23 "for the gift of God is eternal life"
But even if I grant you the benefit of the doubt, I clearly said in my post that God gives faith only to believers. Paul is talking to believers here. "It is by grace that you have been saved not will be saved.


"God gives faith to believers".LOL.Belief is faith.They do not acquire it all on their own.By His grace folks are saved.

You seem to be confused here.
God gives faith, as he gives any spiritual gift to a believer. He does not give spiritual gifts to unbelievers, and never has.
The faith an unbeliever has is his own. It must be. Otherwise he has no way to be saved. He must put his in the Lord Jesus Christ. What do you think the Bible says when it commands one to:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
It does not say: "Believe with the faith that God has given you on Jesus Christ."
That is a ridiculous theology. The belief or the faith must come from the individual calling on the Lord.

This is the will of God: to believe on Christ. I believed. The belief or faith was mine.

A self-made man.Your all-powerful will in action.

You have not demonstrated that to be the case at all. You assert something and then are not able to prove.

I danced around nothing. I gave an adequate defense but you were not able to either refute or accept. Your problem is that you want to turn every person into a robot totally controlled by God with no free will at all. Sorry the Bible does not teach that. You are just plain wrong.

 

[Rippon]

I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved.

Still running on the same track I see.

__________________________________________________________

You seem to be confused here.
God gives faith, as he gives any spiritual gift to a believer. He does not give spiritual gifts to unbelievers, and never has.

I don't think I am the confused one.

Certainly God gives spiritual gifts to believers.And of course the Lord doesn't give spiritual gits to non-believers.What you stubbornly refuse to acknowlege is that the Lord gives faith to His elect.

_____________________________________________________________


I danced around nothing. I gave an adequate defense but you were not able to either refute or accept.

You are Gene Kelly.Providing Scripture which any honest Christian can plainly see evidences that God gives faith is not good enough for you.
_____________________________________________________________


Your problem is that you want to turn every person into a robot totally controlled by God with no free will at all. Sorry the Bible does not teach that. You are just plain wrong.

Why you continue saying utterly untrue things after being corrected on the matter countless times by many others (not just me)is sad and wrong.

Your robot mantra is wearing quite thin.Certainly you can't name a single Calvinist on the BB or in Church History who holds to that.But you specialize in perpetuating myths.

I am sorry that you believe that people in the natural have an unrestricted free-will.They are able to good and draw close to God as easily as they are to do evil in your book. That is foolish teaching.But since you deny Total Depravity it's no wonder you believe as you do.