Ordo Salutis

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, I've been joking around in latin. However, this is my view which doesn't really seem to fit here but I'll give it a shot.

Salvation first I view as everything including heaven not just the point in time we're justified. So where does Salvation lie? In the hands of the Almighty.

I look at it this way Salvation begins with God. With out God's intervention we wouldn't even consider salvation. So, for me it follows this path.

Salvation begins with the Grace of God. God has elected me to be saved whether Universally or specifically or both I'm not sure. However, ultimately, it is god's salvation. Then he softens my heart or prepares me for it. Then he offers it to me. The only appropiate responce is to accept the free gift with faith already given me. But then I must follow Jesus and live rightly with all the benefits and struggles that accompany it by the faith he has given me. At some point when I shed this mortal coil the Lord will raise me from the dead and a judgement of my actions and works will ensue under the Grace and provision and judgement of God. Then I will enter the wedding feast of the Lamb eternally with him.

All of these aspects are salvation.

 

[DHK]

I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved.

Still running on the same track I see.

What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit? You don't believe that? No wonder you are confused.

"You seem to be confused here.
God gives faith, as he gives any spiritual gift to a believer. He does not give spiritual gifts to unbelievers, and never has. "

I don't think I am the confused one.

Certainly God gives spiritual gifts to believers.And of course the Lord doesn't give spiritual gits to non-believers.What you stubbornly refuse to acknowlege is that the Lord gives faith to His elect.

The word elect only refers to those that are saved; not to the unsaved. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved--never has. He does not give faith to pagans. Until that pagan becomes saved he remains outside of the elect of God. Until Rahab the harlot believed in Jehovah she remained outside of the nation of Israel. Likewise, for Ruth. Israel was God's elect. Naomi and Ruth became part of that elect by believing (by their own choice) the God of the elect. The "elect" only applies to those that believe, not to those that do not believe.

If a Voo-doo witch-doctor becomes saved he becomes one of the elect.
Before that time he was a witch-doctor; but not one one of the elect.
Before the time of his salvation he was able to speak in tongues, and had faith that he could do so. Where was the origin of his faith? What was the source of his ability to speak in tongues? Was it from God?
NO, of course not. But he had to put his own faith in God, in order to become saved. Only after that time would God even consider giving him any kind of spiritual gift, such as faith.

"I danced around nothing. I gave an adequate defense but you were not able to either refute or accept."

You are Gene Kelly.Providing Scripture which any honest Christian can plainly see evidences that God gives faith is not good enough for you.

As I said I gave an adequate defence but you were not able to refute it or accept it. Calling me Gene Kelly just further proves my point.

"Your problem is that you want to turn every person into a robot totally controlled by God with no free will at all. Sorry the Bible does not teach that. You are just plain wrong."

Why you continue saying utterly untrue things after being corrected on the matter countless times by many others (not just me)is sad and wrong.

I speak forth the Word of God; not a man's system of theology which men get trapped in. If you are trapped in a man's system of theology and can't get out of it, I feel sorry for you.

Your robot mantra is wearing quite thin.Certainly you can't name a single Calvinist on the BB or in Church History who holds to that.But you specialize in perpetuating myths.

The Bible is not a myth. You need to learn that.
God is neither cruel nor vindictive.
The Muslim holds a sword to the neck of an "infidel" and tells him to believe (Allah) or die. The victim "believes," out of fear of his life. It is a forced conversion. Allah is cruel and vindictive.
God does not use the Holy Spirit to force people into robotic conversions with men having no free will. They have a choice to receive or reject. God is neither cruel or vindictive. He is a God of love and mercy. He did not create robots. He created man in His owm image, with a mind to choose between good and evil; to choose Christ or to deny him.

I am sorry that you believe that people in the natural have an unrestricted free-will.They are able to good and draw close to God as easily as they are to do evil in your book. That is foolish teaching.But since you deny Total Depravity it's no wonder you believe as you do.

I believe what the Bible teaches; not what a man has developed in a his own box of theology.

 

[Rippon]

What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit? You don't believe that? No wonder you are confused.

You're pathetic.
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The word elect only refers to those that are saved; not to the unsaved. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved--never has. He does not give faith to pagans. Until that pagan becomes saved he remains outside of the elect of God. Until Rahab the harlot believed in Jehovah she remained outside of the nation of Israel. Likewise, for Ruth. Israel was God's elect. Naomi and Ruth became part of that elect by believing (by their own choice) the God of the elect. The "elect" only applies to those that believe, not to those that do not believe.

People do not become elect.People become saved.If you are saved you were elect before the foundation of the world.
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I speak forth the Word of God; not a man's system of theology which men get trapped in. If you are trapped in a man's system of theology and can't get out of it, I feel sorry for you.

I am not trapped in a man's system of theology.But your boots are being sucked off as we speak.
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The Bible is not a myth. You need to learn that.

You're back to being pathetic again.I had said that you perpetuate myths.You deliberately cast Calvinists in false and demeaning ways.You're shameful.

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God is neither cruel nor vindictive.

Of course He isn't.Why you bring up silly things is mind-numbing.

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The Muslim holds a sword to the neck of an "infidel" and tells him to believe (Allah) or die. The victim "believes," out of fear of his life. It is a forced conversion. Allah is cruel and vindictive.
God does not use the Holy Spirit to force people into robotic conversions with men having no free will. They have a choice to receive or reject. God is neither cruel or vindictive. He is a God of love and mercy. He did not create robots. He created man in His owm image, with a mind to choose between good and evil; to choose Christ or to deny him.

God is not cruel and vindictive.God is a God of love and mercy.God doesn't force people into robotic conversions.
Allah is cruel and vindictive.
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I believe what the Bible teaches; not what a man has developed in a his own box of theology.

I think you need to return to your box of theology.Came out when you want to be honest with any objections you have about real Calvinism -- not the warped variety of your mind.

 

[skypair]

rip,

I hope this will clear your thinking on the Holy Spirit and His proper roll in salvation.

What amount of the Spirit does one need? "filling?" "indwelling?" How about just the "wisdom" of the Spirit -- as in Prov 8? The whole passage speaks of the Holy Spirit as God's wisdom and the last 2 verses sound like a call to salvation:

"For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

IOW, all we need to do is "find" the "wisdom" and we will find "life." We don't need to be "indwelt"/"regenerated by the Spirit first. We don't really need to be "filled" according to this passage. And notice it also says that we are capable of "finding" Wisdom, too! Notice in 8:1 how Wisdom cries out to be heard even of 'ye simple' and of 'fools!'

I would we had never had the 'wisdom' of Augustine and Calvin to convince us otherwise! Perhaps now you will see that theirs is a competing wisdom with the with God's wisdom, the Holy Spirit.

What amount of the Spirit does one need? Knowledge and understanding of the Wisdom of God in salvation is all. If you've found that, that is the amount of the Spirit you need and you can be saved if you will be saved.

skypair

 

[Dr. Bob]

Pathetic? Believing that the holy Spirit is the agent of salvation and not fallen man pulling himself by his bootstraps is NOT pathetic. It is bible.

Pathetic? Let's try not to use such perjorative language.

 

[Rippon]

Pathetic? Believing that the holy Spirit is the agent of salvation and not fallen man pulling himself by his bootstraps is NOT pathetic. It is bible.

Pathetic? Let's try not to use such perjorative language.

Dr.Bob,apparently you don't know about conversations DHK and I have had in our history on the BB.DHK has minimized the role of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.He puts man in the driver's seat.Unregenerate,depraved man can make his own decision without God entering the picture. Sure,the Holy Spirit is involved in the process somehow,but man is the decisive player.

I repudiate that.But,more importantly the Bible rejects it.Fallen man is in bondage to sin.Unless and until God the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces a person of sin and causes that one to believe and repent -- he is in a hopeless plight.

So when DHK says that "I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved." he is on the same old tired track of diminishing the foundational role of God being the Author and Finisher of our faith.

But DHK comes along and says :"What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit?You don't believe that?No wonder you are confused." That kind of "dialog" is his stock-in-trade.He delights in twisting things around.He charges me with things that he very well knows are completely false --- over and over again.

 

[DHK]

But DHK comes along and says :"What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit?You don't believe that?No wonder you are confused." That kind of "dialog" is his stock-in-trade.He delights in twisting things around.He charges me with things that he very well knows are completely false --- over and over again.

Now comes the false accusation. You are responding to a statement originally made by me:

I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved.

And then you turn around and say:
"DHK minimizes the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration."

Something wrong here don't you think. I would call it a false accusation.
Because I don't believe your theology (and swallow it) hook, line and sinker, gives you no right to say that I minimize the the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration. That is false and you know it.

 

[skypair]

Pathetic? Believing that the holy Spirit is the agent of salvation and not fallen man pulling himself by his bootstraps is NOT pathetic. It is bible.

Pathetic? Let's try not to use such perjorative language.

If this had been skypair...

...the discussion would have been over that the ban already in place! :type:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Unregenerate, depraved man can make his own decision without God entering the picture. Sure, the Holy Spirit is involved in the process somehow, but man is the decisive player.

It is the "somehow" that is your downfall. Either YOU were a sinner before you believed or you were saved/regenerate already? Which was it, rip?

So when DHK says that "I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved." he is on the same old tired track of diminishing the foundational role of God being the Author and Finisher of our faith.

If that is the way you see it, YOU better get on that "tired track." Let me ask you --- when the animals were named, who had the "sovereignty" to name them, God or Adam? YOU better figure out who is going to have the "sovereignty" to name your Savior, sir!

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Now comes the false accusation. You are responding to a statement originally made by me:
And then you turn around and say:
"DHK minimizes the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration."

Something wrong here don't you think. I would call it a false accusation.
Because I don't believe your theology (and swallow it) hook, line and sinker, gives you no right to say that I minimize the the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration. That is false and you know it.

You are the one who falsely accuses on a regular basis.

Past statements and sentiments from you.More samples of your theology can be provided.

He [God] may be involved in our salvation.

God doesn't give faith to believe.

He [God] knew about it [our salvation] of course.

Whatever the will of God decrees,it will come to pass -- sounds like Islam to me.

Someone can come to Christ through a combination of superior wisdom and keen perception.

Granted to believe means privileged to believe.

Man chooses to be saved.

He [man] has the ability to make the decision all on his own.So even though the Holy Spirit was involved...

 

[DHK]

You are the one who falsely accuses on a regular basis.

Past statements and sentiments from you.More samples of your theology can be provided.

Past statements of theology are not false accusations. You are confused. The statement on being falsely accused still stands. BTW, when you quote me use the quote function. Most of these I recognize, some I don't, and therefore they cannot all be verified as being my statements.

He [God] may be involved in our salvation.

Are you suggesting that God may not be involved in man's salvation??

God doesn't give faith to believe.

A true statement. Why would God give a spiritual gift to an unsaved person?
I have yet to hear your answer on that.
My pet dog trusts me; has faith in me. Did God give him that faith?

He [God] knew about it [our salvation] of course.

Are you suggesting that God is not knowledgeable; does not know about our salvation? What kind of God do you serve?

Whatever the will of God decrees,it will come to pass -- sounds like Islam to me.

"Whatever the will of God decrees..." The statement is a definition of fatalism; one of the beliefs of Islam. Is it one of yours as well?

Someone can come to Christ through a combination of superior wisdom and keen perception.

I don't recognize this statement. You would have to verify it as being mine.

Granted to believe means privileged to believe.

No doubt this statement was made in the light of Phil.1:29. Have you bothered to study it yet?

Man chooses to be saved.

Man does choose to be saved. God gave him that choice just like he gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat or not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We have a choice--to receive or reject Christ. Christ himself taught that principle: John 3:18;36.

He [man] has the ability to make the decision all on his own.So even though the Holy Spirit was involved...

You don't like the truth do you.

So you post these truths of mine, and then call them false accusations.
Odd.

 

[Rippon]

Are you suggesting that God may not be involved in man's salvation??

Stop your nonsense.The Lord is not merely involved -- He is responsible for one's salvation.
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Why would God give a spiritual gift to an unsaved person?
I have yet to hear your answer on that.
My pet dog trusts me; has faith in me. Did God give him that faith?

Your analogies are too extreme and silly.

God gives His saved children gifts.(See 1 Cor.12:1-11).What I am talking about is an unregenerate elect person --the Lord gives such a person faith to believe.Such an individual will not believe on their own.

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Are you suggesting that God is not knowledgeable; does not know about our salvation? What kind of God do you serve?

My God is the One of the Bible in counter-distinction to those who think they are large-and-in-charge with respect to how their salvation took place.God is not on the sidelines observing regeneration.He determines the who,when,where and how pertaining to it.

I have had enough of your infantile "What kind of God do you serve talk?"Just knock it off.And you dare to charge me with ungodly speech?!You have a lot of temerity.

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"Whatever the will of God decrees..." The statement is a definition of fatalism; one of the beliefs of Islam. Is it one of yours as well?

There you go again Jimmy Carter.Can you please deal in truth?Christianity is not Islam.You do not believe in the biblical fact that God decrees.He ordains things to occur.He doesn't just know -- He determines things.That rankles you.Acts 13:48 is your great nemesis.

If you think Calvinism is teaching untruths similiar to that of Islam -- than you believe that Calvinists are unsaved.Don't just keep throwing dirt on us without taking the consequences of your actions.

You need to stop your unbridled characterizations of us.You are dead wrong in your assertions.You know you are sinning in doing it -- but you have continued.You're shameful.
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No doubt this statement was made in the light of Phil.1:29. Have you bothered to study it yet?

Yes,I probably knew more about that passage before you ever became a believer.Are you still of the opinion that it just means that God granting faith is a privilege and not a bestowal?Or have you come around to more solid biblical footing?Hopefully you have come to see that faith and repentance are given (granted) by God to those in time who were selected for eternal life before the world began.

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You don't like the truth do you.

I value it above a number of people here who specialize in misrepresentation.
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So you post these truths of mine, and then call them false accusations.
Odd.

Truths of yours.That's a strange way of putting things. It sounds so post-modern of you.

You have made so many false accusations of me and other Calvinists that it is hard to catalog.

You have repeatedly said that I serve another God.

You have said that I am worshipping the wrong God.

You have asserted that my religion is not much different than Islam.And further,that you were not ashamed to say so.
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The former were charges that you have made against me personally.

But you have also said false things about Calvinists in general.

You say we believe that God forces salvation on people.You say that we think people are robots -- machines.Do you realize that the more you say something doesn't necessarily make it true?Gather up your robot toys,along with your Calvinism =Islam junk and trash them.

You have said that Calvinists think that the reprobate are pre-programmed to serve the Devil.

You have said that we believe the reprobate are 'elected' to go to Hell.

 

[webdog]

If this had been skypair...

...the discussion would have been over that the ban already in place! :type:

skypair

I would have thought the post would have at least been edited. Calling another BB member pathetic "you are pathetic" is hardly a post from grace, and IS a personal attack.

I guess birds of a feather flock together

 

[Thinkingstuff]

A forum to discuss idea's and points of views should not be taken personaly nor should name calling commence. We all hold strong views and will defend them but this is a forum. We disagree about some of these theological questions. However, charity is a fruit of the spirit. Just a reminder.

 

[DHK]

"Are you suggesting that God may not be involved in man's salvation??"

Stop your nonsense.The Lord is not merely involved -- He is responsible for one's salvation.

I never said that God wasn't responsible for salvation. This is your false accusation, one might say. What it really amounts to, is you putting words into my mouth, things that I never said.

"Why would God give a spiritual gift to an unsaved person?
I have yet to hear your answer on that.
My pet dog trusts me; has faith in me. Did God give him that faith?"

Your analogies are too extreme and silly.

God gives His saved children gifts.(See 1 Cor.12:1-11).What I am talking about is an unregenerate elect person --the Lord gives such a person faith to believe.Such an individual will not believe on their own.

If you would step away from your "elect/non-elect" syndrome, and take a serious look at the doctrine of soteriology, it might do you some good.
When Nicodemus came to Jesus, Jesus did not tell him you must be one of the elect.
When the Philippian jailor came to Paul, Paul did not tell him: You must be one of the elect.
When Philip spoke to the Ethiopian eunuch, he did not tell him: you must be one of the elect.

What Paul did say: "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
That does not say: "Whosoever God forces His faith to call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Whoever calls. The calling is the persons own choice. He is not forced by God. He is unregenerate, and the faith must come from within himself. He cannot be forced by God to make a decision. God is not going to give an individual faith to believe.
Paul said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
He did not say: Believe with the faith God has given you.
Nowhere in the Bible is such an concept taught.

"Are you suggesting that God is not knowledgeable; does not know about our salvation? What kind of God do you serve?"

My God is the One of the Bible in counter-distinction to those who think they are large-and-in-charge with respect to how their salvation took place.God is not on the sidelines observing regeneration.He determines the who,when,where and how pertaining to it.

Your testimony is interesting to say the least.
You write in your profile: "I was a Christian for 43 years; then a Calvinist."
Are you inferring that you lost your salvation when you became a follower of Calvin? Or that Calvinists are not Christians? I am not questioning your salvation, just the wording of your statement of salvation in your profile. You might want to clarify it.

"Whatever the will of God decrees..." The statement is a definition of fatalism; one of the beliefs of Islam. Is it one of yours as well?*

There you go again Jimmy Carter.Can you please deal in truth?Christianity is not Islam.

I am not Jimmy Carter, and I do deal in truth.
What I have told you is truth. You have described to a Tee, the "fatalistic" doctrine of Islam. The God of Christianity is not like that. You are right in that Christianity is not Islam. That is why I would never believe such an Islamic doctrine. God is not fatalistic.
Here it is: "Whatever the will of God decrees it will be so." (your statement)
"Whatever Allah decrees it will be so." (Islam)
Not much difference is there? You have set God aloof from His people just as Islam has. But the truth is that God is intricately involved in the affairs of His people. "He so loved the world..." "He is the propitiation...for the sins of the whole world."
I believe in a God of love and mercy; as well as holiness and justice. I believe in all of his attributes. But when you set God off as being fatalistic, as you have done, you automatically take away from God many of his positive attributes.

You do not believe in the biblical fact that God decrees.He ordains things to occur.He doesn't just know -- He determines things.That rankles you.Acts 13:48 is your great nemesis.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
--And why should this be my nemesis?
God knew before hand who would be saved. That is all that this verse is teaching. It seems that you want to claim this foreknowledge for yourself. Is that true?

If you think Calvinism is teaching untruths similiar to that of Islam -- than you believe that Calvinists are unsaved.Don't just keep throwing dirt on us without taking the consequences of your actions.

I don't know about Calvinism in general. I didn't know that you were his official representative. Did he appoint you when he left you his will? I am not responding to Calvin. I am responding to you. So let's make that one point clear.
I already said that I am not questioning your salvation. I made that abundantly clear. To state what I explained above: What you (not Calvin) set forth, is a doctrine similar to Islam's doctrine of fatalism. That is something that you have to deal with--not Calvin. There is no "us" here. I am speaking to you.

You need to stop your unbridled characterizations of us.You are dead wrong in your assertions.You know you are sinning in doing it -- but you have continued.You're shameful.

Is Rippon more than one person. Why do you refer to "Rippon" as "us"?
I answer your posts, and I don't find that shameful. What is shameful is your inability to respond to them in an intelligent manner.

"No doubt this statement was made in the light of Phil.1:29. Have you bothered to study it yet?"

Yes,I probably knew more about that passage before you ever became a believer.

A bit arrogant aren't you? You don't even know who I am. Your profile gives me a good idea of your age, and possibly how long you were saved. (BTW, my grandson is saved and probably knows about that verse as well).

Are you still of the opinion that it just means that God granting faith is a privilege and not a bestowal?Or have you come around to more solid biblical footing?Hopefully you have come to see that faith and repentance are given (granted) by God to those in time who were selected for eternal life before the world began.

God does not give faith to the unsaved. How far off the map can that be?
There is no example of it in Scripture. There is no teaching of it in Scripture.
It is a man-made doctrine.
"Believe" and you shall be saved. The "belief" or "faith" must come from the individual. Otherwise he cannot be saved. The Great Commission is given to every believer to: Go and preach the gospel to every creature. To that message there must be a response. The response is either to believe it or reject it. That choice is up to man himself. If you say it is up to God, then man is a pre-programmed robot with no choice, but only those that God has elected must of a necessity choose for God has forced his faith upon them so that they have no choice but to believe. That is not Christianity. That is akin to a Muslim holding a sword to one's throat and saying: Believe or die.
God is not cruel and vindictive; He is a God of love. He does not coerce people into salvation, though he is not willing that any should perish.

 

[skypair]

rip,

I think you need to come up with a more credible scenario of salvation. The main, critical component of salvation for Calvies is that the unbeliever is "indwelt"/regenerate before they believe or even know of Christ. This just harkens back to infant baptism/regeneration. You've absolutely got to be kidding! Yet Calvinism depends on it but Baptists and the Bible say that is not so. Who do you believe?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

I never said that God wasn't responsible for salvation. This is your false accusation, one might say. What it really amounts to, is you putting words into my mouth, things that I never said.

You're quite the one to talk! I had said that the Lord was not merely involved in one's salvation -- He is responsible for one's salvation.You are the one who constantly puts the role of the Lord in an inferior position "He may be involved" etc. I never said that you claimed the Lord wasn't responsible for one's salvation.As a matter of fact I am glad to see you making such a declaration.

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He cannot be forced by God to make a decision.
[/quote]
Agreed.
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God is not going to give an individual faith to believe.
[/quote]

Biblically untrue.
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Your testimony is interesting to say the least.
You write in your profile: "I was a Christian for 43 years; then a Calvinist."
[/quote]

You don't read too well. I became a Christian more than 40 years ago. Over 20 years ago "I came to Calvinistic convictions."

In your case you remained an Arminian.In my case the Lord led me to Calvinistic convictions.
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Are you inferring that you lost your salvation when you became a follower of Calvin?
[/quote]

See, these kind of inane comments do not serve you well.I guarantee you can predict my respons:.I do not follow the man John Calvin.Prove that you are more mature than to type that drivel.

I did not lose my salvation when I came to a Calvinistic understanding of the Word of God.In fact my faith was strengthened.

Your remarks about losing salvation is shameful.But you say these kinds of things often.
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Or that Calvinists are not Christians? I am not questioning your salvation, just the wording of your statement of salvation in your profile. You might want to clarify it.
[/quote]

You might want to step back and evaluate your walk before the Lord with these kinds of remarks of yours.

You might want clarification -- but I rather think you want to be extra-contentious.

You are not questioning my savation?! Why then do you repeatedly say things like I serve and worship a different God?You're rather transparent here.
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You have described to a Tee, the "fatalistic" doctrine of Islam. The God of Christianity is not like that. You are right in that Christianity is not Islam. That is why I would never believe such an Islamic doctrine. God is not fatalistic.
Here it is: "Whatever the will of God decrees it will be so." (your statement)
"Whatever Allah decrees it will be so." (Islam)
Not much difference is there? You have set God aloof from His people just as Islam has.
[/quote]

Pure malarkey on your part.
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... you automatically take away from God many of his positive attributes.
[/quote]
Does the Lord have any negative attributes?! They are all positive as far as I am concerned -- and I concern myself with Scripture.
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Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
--And why should this be my nemesis?
God knew before hand who would be saved. That is all that this verse is teaching.
[/quote]

Well you need to study it a lot more.It does not teach that God merely knows beforehand -- He ordains,appoints,establishes,determines.His decree is realized in time -- then the ones who are His elect are given belief,and hence eternal life.

That passage still opposes your notions.
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I don't know about Calvinism in general. I didn't know that you were his official representative. Did he appoint you when he left you his will? I am not responding to Calvin. I am responding to you. So let's make that one point clear.
[/quote]

Clarity is your forte?!
Yes,you are right.Calvinism is something you are not familiar with.
John Calvin does not = Calvinism. You specialize in untruths.
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I already said that I am not questioning your salvation. I made that abundantly clear.
[/quote]

But the reality is that you often post such things as I related above.So your "abundantly clear" plea is not penetrating.

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To state what I explained above: What you (not Calvin) set forth, is a doctrine similar to Islam's doctrine of fatalism.
[/quote]
Your bunkum again.
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Is Rippon more than one person. Why do you refer to "Rippon" as "us"?
[/quote]

I distinguished in my last post things in which you have slandered me personally.I then related how you regularly malign Calvinists in general.But again,you have trouble reading.
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God does not give faith to the unsaved. How far off the map can that be?
There is no example of it in Scripture. There is no teaching of it in Scripture.
It is a man-made doctrine.
[/quote]

I furnished several passages of Scripture which teach that God indeed gives faith to His own.You don't appreciate the force of those verses and yet you have the gall to say they are "man-made doctrines".Your doctrine of salvation is pretty man-centered -- not God-centered.
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If you say it is up to God, then man is a pre-programmed robot with no choice, but only those that God has elected must of a necessity choose for God has forced his faith upon them so that they have no choice but to believe. That is not Christianity. That is akin to a Muslim holding a sword to one's throat and saying: Believe or die.
God is not cruel and vindictive; He is a God of love. He does not coerce people into salvation, though he is not willing that any should perish.[/quote]

I told you in my prior post to gather up those toy robots of yours.Are they still in your sandbox?

Christianity is not Islam. God is not cruel;although vengence is indeed His.

God is love.But He is not only love.

He doesn't force people into salvation.

He is not willing that any of His own perish.You need to contextualize 2 Peter 3:9.Read,study and meditate on the whole Epistle.Then get back to me.

 

[DHK]

"God is not going to give an individual faith to believe."

Biblically untrue.

This is simply an assertion of yours. If it were true you would be able to back it up with irrefutable evidence or Scripture, but you can't.

"Your testimony is interesting to say the least.
You write in your profile: "I was a Christian for 43 years; then a Calvinist."

You don't read too well. I became a Christian more than 40 years ago. Over 20 years ago "I came to Calvinistic convictions."

I didn't see the word "convictions" written on another line.
Even so, a former Catholic could write: I became a Christian 20 years ago; then a Baptist.
Catholics consider themselves Christians. A new Christian may believe that becoming a Baptist was the point of his salvation. Thus I simply asked for clarification on what you had written.

In your case you remained an Arminian.In my case the Lord led me to Calvinistic convictions.

This is not true. I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, and never have been. One does not have to be one or the other, contrary to your thinking.

"Are you inferring that you lost your salvation when you became a follower of Calvin?"

See, these kind of inane comments do not serve you well.I guarantee you can predict my respons:.I do not follow the man John Calvin.Prove that you are more mature than to type that drivel.

I already explained myself as to my comment. It wasn't an inane comment. It was a request as to clarification to what you had written in your profile.

I did not lose my salvation when I came to a Calvinistic understanding of the Word of God.In fact my faith was strengthened.

Your remarks about losing salvation is shameful.But you say these kinds of things often.

Not really. I have explained myself. Leave it at that.

Or that Calvinists are not Christians? I am not questioning your salvation, just the wording of your statement of salvation in your profile. You might want to clarify it.

You might want to step back and evaluate your walk before the Lord with these kinds of remarks of yours.

You might want clarification -- but I rather think you want to be extra-contentious.

You are not questioning my savation?! Why then do you repeatedly say things like I serve and worship a different God?You're rather transparent here.

If you are going to make remarks like that, you better be prepared to back them up.
Where have I said that you serve a different God?

"You have described to a Tee, the "fatalistic" doctrine of Islam. The God of Christianity is not like that. You are right in that Christianity is not Islam. That is why I would never believe such an Islamic doctrine. God is not fatalistic.
Here it is: "Whatever the will of God decrees it will be so." (your statement)
"Whatever Allah decrees it will be so." (Islam)
Not much difference is there? You have set God aloof from His people just as Islam has. "

Pure malarkey on your part.

Then prove the analogy wrong.

"... you automatically take away from God many of his positive attributes."

Does the Lord have any negative attributes?! They are all positive as far as I am concerned -- and I concern myself with Scripture.

What man classifies as negative attributes? Yes. Justice, Judgment, etc. Those that are offsetting to love, mercy and kindness.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
--And why should this be my nemesis?
God knew before hand who would be saved. That is all that this verse is teaching.

Well you need to study it a lot more.It does not teach that God merely knows beforehand -- He ordains,appoints,establishes,determines.His decree is realized in time -- then the ones who are His elect are given belief,and hence eternal life.

Please don't give me that Islamic drivel again. We are all pre-programmed robots with not will of our own. Everything that happens is either one of two things:
1. It is by fate, and God knows about it.
2. It is pre-programmed by God, and man has no choice about it. He is simply a robot in God's hand.
What are you saying. Which one do you choose to say that man is.

That passage still opposes your notions.

I disagree.

"I don't know about Calvinism in general. I didn't know that you were his official representative. Did he appoint you when he left you his will? I am not responding to Calvin. I am responding to you. So let's make that one point clear."

Clarity is your forte?!
Yes,you are right.Calvinism is something you are not familiar with.
John Calvin does not = Calvinism. You specialize in untruths.

No false accusations. I answer you; not Calvin. You are not his appointed representative. If so shoiw me that in history. I believe in sola scriptura. I use the Bible. Do you? I refrain from the tenets of Calvin. I would suggest you do the same. Use Scripture to defend yourself. You wil gain more respect that way.

"I already said that I am not questioning your salvation. I made that abundantly clear."

But the reality is that you often post such things as I related above.So your "abundantly clear" plea is not penetrating.

I will let it be known that you don't believe me.

"To state what I explained above: What you (not Calvin) set forth, is a doctrine similar to Islam's doctrine of fatalism."

Your bunkum again.
It is sad that you can't refute what I say; only be sarcastic.

"Is Rippon more than one person. Why do you refer to "Rippon" as "us"?"

I distinguished in my last post things in which you have slandered me personally.I then related how you regularly malign Calvinists in general.But again,you have trouble reading.

I have already stated that I do not consider you as the official spokesman for Calvinism, so you can dispense with the "us" bit. I will respond with the first person singular, not plural. And you can also do away with the sarcastic remarks and false accusations. Back up what you say.

"God does not give faith to the unsaved. How far off the map can that be?
There is no example of it in Scripture. There is no teaching of it in Scripture.
It is a man-made doctrine."

I furnished several passages of Scripture which teach that God indeed gives faith to His own.You don't appreciate the force of those verses and yet you have the gall to say they are "man-made doctrines".Your doctrine of salvation is pretty man-centered -- not God-centered.

I refuted all of the Scripture that you gave me.
The Bible still says "Believe on the Lord Jesus..."
It does not say: "Believe with God's faith on the Lord Jesus."
Your position holds no water.

"If you say it is up to God, then man is a pre-programmed robot with no choice, but only those that God has elected must of a necessity choose for God has forced his faith upon them so that they have no choice but to believe. That is not Christianity. That is akin to a Muslim holding a sword to one's throat and saying: Believe or die.
God is not cruel and vindictive; He is a God of love. He does not coerce people into salvation, though he is not willing that any should perish."

I told you in my prior post to gather up those toy robots of yours.Are they still in your sandbox?

Christianity is not Islam. God is not cruel;although vengence is indeed His.

God is love.But He is not only love.

It is true that Christianity is not Islam; but your concept of God is much like some aspects of the Islamic God.
It is true that God is love. You need to show that more in your posts, especially in the doctrine of soteriology.

He doesn't force people into salvation.

He is not willing that any of His own perish.You need to contextualize 2 Peter 3:9.Read,study and meditate on the whole Epistle.Then get back to me.

 

[Rippon]

This is simply an assertion of yours. If it were true you would be able to back it up with irrefutable evidence or Scripture, but you can't.

I have given you plenty of Scripture earlier in this thread.You deny the thrust of the verses.The Scripture is right.You are in rebellion to the Word.
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This is not true. I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, and never have been. One does not have to be one or the other, contrary to your thinking.
[/quote]

Real Christians fall into the Calvinist and Arminian camps.Some professing Christians Christians are semi-Pelagian.Your beliefs square-up with Arminianism.
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Where have I said that you serve a different God?
[/quote]

Well,one such time (of the several) was post #82 of yours on the thread "God Got The Memo" wherein you said that I am "worshipping the wrong God."

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Then prove the analogy wrong.
[/quote]

Your analogies are worthless.When you start saying stupid things like God must give faith to dogs so they'll obey their masters -- in order to dismiss the biblical doctrine of God giving faith to His people -- you have stepped into nonsense.It seems Sp has become your mentor in the faith.

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What man classifies as negative attributes? Yes. Justice, Judgment, etc. Those that are offsetting to love, mercy and kindness.
[/quote]

None of God's attributes are negative.How then would you classify His Holiness?
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Please don't give me that Islamic drivel again.
[/quote]

Are you having an identity crisis?I am the one telling you not to dredge up your Islamic drivel again.I'll be real happy for you never to mention it again.It's sinful on your part.[/quote]

 

[webdog]

I don't know how DHK can have a conversatin with Rippon's butchering of the quote feature. It's amazing something so simple can be so hard to use