Original Autographs Only

Disagree with you, but respect your position and the lack of venom directed against those of us who hold a different one.

 

Saul_Paul,

If you are KJVO you are not Majority Text. You are "Scrivener's TR". The Byzantine text type has some significant variations from KJV 1611, 1769, 1850.

There was no ONE Greek text that the KJV translators followed. Sometimes they would follow one, sometimes antoher. The only way a Standardized TR came into existance is that F.H.A. Scrivener MADE ONE!

 

Presuming God inspired the message of the Bible, and further presuming God wants currently living (and future) people to be read and understand His message, I'm not particularly worried about 'error'.

Please do not misunderstand, there are translations that are outright wrong; the Jehova's Witness version saying (from John's gospel) "... and the word was a god..." is the best example of which I am aware.

But I am referring to honest translations. The KJV is a fair translation; it's biggest problem being the difference of 17th Century English and modern English. The Berkely version is good and readable and accurate; the NIV is acceptable; my favorite is the Revised English version. I study in the Amplified a good deal.

As far as error is concerned, which errors concern us? Paul's Greek was articulate and flowing and graceful. John's Greek was what one would expect from a commercial fisherman. His clumsy and gramatically incorrect writing does not invalidate his inspiration.

Original autographs? Let's get them out and check them. Then we don't have to argue, do me?

God is not sleeping, dead or forgetful. He continually insures a proper copy of His word for the present day.
---------------------------
Still without a proper signature,
Archie

 

Did God say....? Sounds like you are putting words into God's mouth-- things He never said!
-- Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Or, suffer the derision of the One and Holy Judge Himself, Christ Jesus, the Word of God! False beliefs, unsubstantiated and indefensible, will not stay your 'beliefs'. Again, do not put your faith in a translation, but rather in what God said.

A heart convinced against its will is a heart unconvinced still. God will not reward the believer who holds on to his/her 'beliefs' if such beliefs are against what He had said.

 

The pedobaptists who translated the KJV were wrong in their doctrine of baptizinmg infants. So you think you could not ever be wrong. It is a very dangerous and unbiblical position to be so sure as to never be on guard and to check those things out to see if you are right or wrong.

Acts 17:11, " Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

The person whose website you gave as a reference was caught plagiarizing and admitted he saw nothing wrong with what he was doing. Amazing how he admitedly copied material directly from another website without their permission when that website explicitly says that they do not permit such things. What kind of character is that?

 

^^^^

It's called intellectual dishonesty, and I'm being very kind with that terminology.

(for those who don't understand the term, read it as like what Dr. Bob referred to as 'LIAR').

Thanks for the post, gb93433!

 

LRL...since it seems you have consigned me to the pit,I will close my participation in this discussion by simply saying that my confidence is in the KJV as being the Word of God which I go to daily as the foundation of my faith in the Author.My FAITH is in the Author.As to using Rev.22:18 against me...I added nothing to the book...I just stated my position in regards to the book.It is interesting that the position I maintain leads me to having confidence in the one book I hold in my hands while the one you and your fellow MV'ers take leads you to having to sort through many versions to determine just what may or may not be the truth.Your position puts you in far greater jeopardy than mine does since all I have to do is believe and obey while you have the far more dangerous position of NEEDING to make judgements on what is and isn't the truth and "correcting" what you perceive to be errors in the text of this living Book we must base our faith in as the truth.
As I have said in previous posts,I believe the evidence that I have seen in support of the KJVO/Preferred position and you obviously do not.That is your right....this is mine and while I respect your position I do NOT agree with it.What we have here is a disagreement of "supporting" scholarship,and we always will be at an impasse in this regard.You prescribe to modern "textual criticism" to determine what you believe to be the Word of God in sum total.I subscribe to the one Book I hold in my hand and am thankful for the godly scholars who have supported and defended it without trying to correct it.
In closing...I have NOT,nor will I ever even come CLOSE to suggesting that you or any of your fellow MV adherents are subject to the plagues and curses of Rev.22:18-19(although I know there are some of my "ilk" that have...and I frown on that)and I won't.I do believe that you and your fellows are basically bible believers even though I think you have been misled as much as you believe I have been.As I've said in the past,the Judgement seat of Christ will be the great equalizer and we shall all know the truth at that time.We all need to FOCUS on the following...Christ,the Son of God,God in the flesh,lived a perfect life,suffered a cruel death,took our punishment for sin,shed His precious Blood for that sin,was buried,rose from the grave to seal our salvation and our victory,ascended unto Heaven and today sits on the right hand of God making intercession for us all.PRAISE GOD!!!!Now...instead of all this endless arguing,we all need to be out there witnessing,teaching and discipling as many people as we can before He comes to take us home.Sadly,modern day apostasy moves the church farther and farther away from this commission.I've said enough....it's about time to get ready to go to church.

I love you all even if we disagree about this!

In Christ,Greg Sr.

 

Gregory Perry Sr.: "It is interesting that the position I maintain leads me to having confidence in the one book I hold in my hands while the one you and your fellow MV'ers take leads you to having to sort through many versions to determine just what may or may not be the truth.Your position puts you in far greater jeopardy than mine does since all I have to do is believe and obey while you have the far more dangerous position of NEEDING to make judgements on what is and isn't the truth and "correcting" what you perceive to be errors in the text of this living Book we must base our faith in as the truth."

I respectfully disagree.

You overlook the fact you have to understand the scripture
before you "believe and obey". Multiple inerrant versions
help with the understanding part. Some of the worse problems
i see people have with the "all I have to do is believe and obey"
position is that this is futile if there is no Holy Spirit granted
understanding of what is to be believed and what is to be
obeyed.

Much damage is being done to the kingdom of God by well intentioned,
"all I have to do is believe and obey" folks who DON'T
UNDERSTAND. My first example is this:
"these are my rules you must follow or you aren't saved".
Salvation is NOT following rules; "following rules" is
following rules. Nuff said about that. Note that i'm not saying
Gregory Perry Sr. is like this, but that some non-specified other
folk (whom we could probably all find some examples of).

Home from church sick,
Ed

 

Mr. Perry: I believe that the KJV is the book that God has chosen to preserve for our generation of english speaking people.

So do I..with the exception of the "the" part. The KJV is A bible version God has preserved for us today...along with quite a few others.


I also believe He has protected it thru the years....and YES...I know it has undergone some updating of words such as spelling changes from the 1611 to the present.I personally don't have any problem with that.

I believe a close perusal of the 1611 & the 1769 will show you differently.

The verses still read the same from what I have seen and in that I beleive it is word-perfect.

Even "Easter" in Acts 4:12? "Slew and hanged" in Acts 5:30? "The image of" in Romans 11;5?


As for the "jots and tittles"I just can't make a case for that one way or the other so I know I will suffer the derision of most of the MV'ers in here.I'm just going to stick to the Book I have cause I believe that's the one the Lord intends me to have,hold,and use.

Nothing wrong with that...except if you try to tell me MY choice to use several versions is wrong.


As I've said in past posts...I think the big issue in my own life is getting enough of THAT BOOK hidden within MY OWN heart so that the Holy Spirit can do His blessed work in me to make me a reflection of my Lord Jesus Christ to this sad and needy lost world we all live in.

The Holy Spirit does that in the lives of many an English speaker who doesn't even own a KJV.


I want to bear fruit for the Master and that is both a frustration to me and a challenge that I am aware of each and every day.All I do know of history is that God has mightily BLESSED that old Book and I think I would be safe in saying that we'll not see that kind of spiritual POWER come out of ANY of the modern "works" that are on the shelves of todays christian bookstores.

If you could live another 400 years, you might think differently, especially if the US govt. were to try to ban all bot one BV which happened to be the sitting president's fave, such as what went down in England during and shortly after KJ's day. Seeing as how at the time almost all the world's English readers were ruled by the British govt. this had quite a far-reaching effect upon the spread of the KJV.


The Word of God(and I think it is the KJ Bible)has God's stamp of approval on it.

The only stamp I've ever seen on a genuine AV 1611 is the royal TAX STAMP.


It has borne MUCH fruit.It will continue to do so long after the others have been "superceded" and "shelved" in favor of yet newer and more "updated" "versions"....but then maybe the Saviour will put and end to all this "controversy" by coming again real soon.I hope so!

We don't look at how much "fruit" any one BV has borne. Common sense says a 400-yr-old tree will have borne much more fruit over its lifetime than will have a 30-yr-old one. We look at the TOTAL HARVEST IN OUR TIME. We can do absolutely nothing about those who have died in sin...but we CAN do mucho for the LIVING. The KJV is but ONE TOOL God has given to the English speakers both for their own edification and for use in leading the lost to Christ.

As for raking you over the coals, I won't do that unless you come down upon my choice to use multiple BVs. I believe God has provided each valid edition for our use for His purposes, and while I don't use'em all, I certainly don't condemn anyone else's choice because it's different from mine. I do NOT try to limit God to what I've chosen from all He's provided.

I will close my participation in this discussion by simply saying that my confidence is in the KJV as being the Word of God which I go to daily as the foundation of my faith in the Author.

So do I...but as GOD isn't limited as to how many versions He may choose to have made, neither am I limited in using His resources except by my own preferences.


My FAITH is in the Author.

So is mine...and I know He ISN'T LIMITED.

It is interesting that the position I maintain leads me to having confidence in the one book I hold in my hands while the one you and your fellow MV'ers take leads you to having to sort through many versions to determine just what may or may not be the truth.

Actually, yours is a position of BLIND FAITH(version-wise), as you have nothing to justify it.


Your position puts you in far greater jeopardy than mine does since all I have to do is believe and obey while you have the far more dangerous position of NEEDING to make judgements on what is and isn't the truth and "correcting" what you perceive to be errors in the text of this living Book we must base our faith in as the truth.

Actually, you're using GUESSWORK. You're simply guessing that the AV translators were always right, in the face of CLEAR EVIDENCE that they made some booboos. You simply cannot prove otherwise. We who deny the KJVO myth do so based upon solid evidence and proofs. We don't hafta just guess and hope some group of baby-sprinklers of 400 years ago was absolutely right 100% of the time. WE strive to understand the Scriptures better through deeper studying, and with at least a rudimentary knowledge of the languages in which God's penmen wrote.

If you have a flat tire, will you get out and change it, or will you sit in your seat blubbering for GOD to do it? Of course He can...but WILL He? That's the same principle of studying the scriptures. Sure, the Holy Spirit can instantly teach you Greek, Hebrew, & Aramaic, and cause you to memorize the entire Bible with full understanding. But...WILL He, especially if you don't MAKE AN EFFORT to learn as much as you can on your own? I believe He helps those who EARNESTLY ASK HIM, while making an honest effort themselves...while throwing everything into God's lap w/o working to learn for yourself will get you NOTHING. Your growth as a Christian will be stunted.

I do believe that you and your fellows are basically bible believers even though I think you have been misled as much as you believe I have been.

Not actually...WE can justify OUR stand with both empirical and circumstantial EVIDENCE(and often HAVE, right here on this board), while the KJVO cannot truthfully support HIS/HER stand with anything but PERSONAL PREFERENCE. All else is WRONG. The KJVO myth isn't even HINTED AT in the KJV itself, which automatically renders all but personal preference incorrect.

..instead of all this endless arguing,we all need to be out there witnessing,teaching and discipling as many people as we can before He comes to take us home.

ALL of us are commanded to do this...while we also are given different specific work, along with the ability to do it. Mine is working against false doctrines. rather than being jealous of the man who has ten talents, I use the one talent He has given me to the best of the little ability He's given me. Jesus has a reason for having me do what I do, same as he has for you. I don't ask why; I just DO it. Sure, I get bored saying the same things over & over, but if it leads ONE PERSON to Christ or keeps ONE NEW BELIEVER from falling into the pit of a false doctrine such as the KJVO myth, it will have been worth it.


Sadly,modern day apostasy moves the church farther and farther away from this commission.

Even more sadly, one of the things which inhibits more than one devout Christian from performing this commission to the best of his/her ability is the man-made false KJVO myth.


For all you "Modern Versionists" and "Original Onlyists" in here I offer a little extracurricular reading without additional comment for your consideration:




Greg Sr.

Been there...seen it...done that

P.S.I doubt it will change your minds...but I love you all in Christ regardless!

You're right...It won't.

The gent who wrote that is a member here, and has been proven wrong mote times than the panel of contestants on Celebrity Jeopardy. He hasn't posted here for awhile; I guess when the heat was turned up, he left the kitchen.

This gent likes to tell us who disagree with him that "we have no final authority". Besides his being totally wrong, he won't tell us who HIS is...Archbishop Bancroft, King James 1, or who. His credibility here isn't much, and I highly recommend you VERIFY some of his statements for yourself before you place much stock in his endless lists of comparisone between versions.

I don't wanna see you go, Mr. Perry, but if you remain so committed, yould you please tell me one thing before you do? WHAT IS YOUR JUSTIFICATION for believing the KJVO myth, if it's more than simply PERSONAL PREFERENCE?

In Christ,

Cranston

 

Gregory Perry Sr.wrote:

Truly ignorant words, Greg. We "MV'ers", as you call us, do not "sort through many versions to determine just what may or may not be the truth." We simply believe that there are many valid translations of God's word, and are not afraid to use them. We do not make the claim that any one of them is the only one, unlike the KJVO.

I do not know of a single person who does not accept the KJV as the word of God, along with a varying number of other translations. It would really help your credability if you actually knew what others actually believe before you go to slandering them.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Trotter,correct me if I'm wrong(and I'm sure you will)but I don't recall "slandering" anybody on here.I also KNOW that I can't offer any satisfactory explanation or evidence that will change anybodys mind in here.I believe what I believe regarding the King James Bible by simple faith that the evidence(which most of you hold in great derision)that I have read is true.Most all of you in here hold to different evidence that leads you to a different conclusion.So be it.I have stated my belief and you believe it to be false.When I talk to people about the Lord I tell them that the Bible I hold in my hand (KJV)is the Word of God that they can have confidence in.I don't tell them to go out and get 10 different versions and read them all for the best understanding.I was saved in 1977.Since that time I have never had a problem understanding the english found in my KJV.I have had some problems being true to it and being right with the Lord from day to day because of this vile flesh I am clothed in.As far as understanding the "archaic" english of the KJV,I have run into nothing that prayer and an occasional trip into my Strongs concordance and possibly my copy of Websters couldn't clear up.
As for the Modern Versions...they simply don't "feel" right to me and I'm not even slightly comfortable reading them.Never have been!I listen to a great deal of preaching from many different sources and it seems to me that the preachers I hear quoting from and using MV's don't preach the same...can't put my finger on it but it just seems that way to me.I will admit that I've heard some "unlearned" KJV preaching that was very shallow as well so I try to be picky about my preachers.Also....since we have a decidedly New Evangelical Radio Station in our area(founded by Billy Graham)I hear much preaching/teaching of that ilk.They almost exclusively use MV's instead of the KJV...and most of them are so far off into psychobabble preaching and non-fundamental weak doctrine that it is almost painful to listen to.Much of it is very worldly and compromised(but that is my opinion).I just believe that the "old way" is the best way so I'm gonna stay there.I know that won't earn me any credibility in here so it is pointless to argue the point.I regard myself as a very old-fashioned campmeeting style baptist Bible-believing Christian.An to think I started out in Young Life meetings in high school with long hair singing kuumbaya and listening to thinking the Doobie Brothers singing "jesus is just alright with me" was a christian song.I thought at the time I was a christian(1970-1974).During that time I was reading JB Phillips "translation" and the "so-called" Living Bible.I have had quite a journey!Incidently,this journey was further enhanced when my buddies at Bob Jones tried to persuade me that the NASB was far better than the KJV(I live in Greenville,SC).That's when I started asking questions about the "version" issue while asking God to show me what HE wanted me to believe.What I believe today is the result of that search...and it has been a settled issue for me since 1980.On that I'll stand.
Ladies and gentlemen...you are free to stand where you wish.I'm happy in the absolute confidence I have in my Bible.Have a nice day and God Bless You all.

Greg Sr.

 

Thank you for giving us your permission.

HankD

 

Gregory Perry Sr:I also KNOW that I can't offer any satisfactory explanation or evidence that will change anybodys mind in here.

Then why believe something you can't prove even to to yourself?

I believe what I believe regarding the King James Bible by simple faith that the evidence(which most of you hold in great derision)that I have read is true.

WHAT evidence? All we've seen so far are tall tales. Why can't the KJVO present any evidence to support his/her myth? Simple...THERE ISN'T ANY!

Most all of you in here hold to different evidence that leads you to a different conclusion.

Unlike the KJVOs, we DO heve evidence...evidence that cannot be truthfully doubted. We deal with FACTS, not hearsay.

What does the KJVO have? GUESSWORK. FISHING STORIES. DOUBLE STANDARDS...and sometimes outright LIES...Not to mention a TOTAL LACK OF SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for the KJVO myth.

So be it.I have stated my belief and you believe it to be false.

If you believe the statement that the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation, it's indeed a false belief. If you personally prefer the KJV over any other English BV, you have a legit belief.

When I talk to people about the Lord I tell them that the Bible I hold in my hand (KJV)is the Word of God that they can have confidence in.

So do I, with any version I'm holding. God isn't limited, and shame on me if I'm trying to limit those whom I'm trying to lead to Christ. If I tell'em the KJV is "it", then I'd be LYING, and last time I checked, that's a SIN.

I don't tell them to go out and get 10 different versions and read them all for the best understanding.

I don't, either. But I certainly don't LIE to them by telling'em the KJV(or any other one version)is "it".

I was saved in 1977.Since that time I have never had a problem understanding the english found in my KJV.

Just because YOU have no such prob doesn't mean it doesn't exist with others. God caused the English of 400 years ago to have His word in the most modern English of that day. What mekes anyone think He retired in 1611 and hasn't given US His word in TODAY'S English?

As for the Modern Versions...they simply don't "feel" right to me and I'm not even slightly comfortable reading them.Never have been!

While I and many others don't feel comfortable attempting to explain the most important literature we'll ever read-GOD'S WORD-in an archaic language style no one uses any more except for special occasions such as performing a Shakespeare play. Shakespeare is dead, and his works are frozen in time, while GOD is not only ALIVE; He's also IN CHARGE, and His word is alive with Him. God's word is NOT frozen in time.

I listen to a great deal of preaching from many different sources and it seems to me that the preachers I hear quoting from and using MV's don't preach the same...can't put my finger on it but it just seems that way to me.

It's called a "conditioned response". You most likely are more interested in what BV the preacher is using than what his MESSAGE is.

NOW...Do you believe the KJV is the best version for YOU, or do you believe the KJV is the ONLY valid English BV? If you believe the latter, then I have no hesitation to say you're believing a FALSE DOCTRINE...a doctrine not just GUESSED to be wrong, but one PROVEN wrong by a trainload of unassailable evidence. There's simply NO evidence in favor of the KJVO myth.

As I've repeatedly said...THERE'S NO LEGITIMATE REASON TO BE KJVO EXCEPT FROM PERSONAL PREFERENCE. All other reasons are wrong.

 

Roby....I have no more to say in this thread or any regarding the translation issue since it is truly pointless to me.I don't have the educational "credentials" to go toe to toe with anyone on this issue.All I have is a settled peace in my heart that what I believe is true based on the evidence I personally read and studied to the best of my ability years ago when confronted with this controversy.I have seen NOTHING in here said by anyone that changes my mind.I see much religious compromise going on today and I believe that the multiplicity of bible versions is partly responsible for that.You and your fellow MV adherents say we KJVO believers are responsible for all the confusion.We say you and yours are.The arguement is unwinnable.Of course,as I withdraw to the confines of my faith many of you will smuggly declare you have "won" and that I never had a "leg" to stand on.I see much intellectual smugness in here and NOT much humility.I'll just stand on my faith since "whatsoever is not of faith is sin".I won't be posting in here anymore...but I will read....and I will pray.The one thing I ALWAYS make a matter of prayer is that God would teach me HIS Truth...and keep me from any error because I don't want to be,nor can I afford to be deceived.I want to be pleasing to the Lord...it's the only thing that really should matter to any child of God.

Humbly Submitted By,Greg Sr.

God Bless You....and I do mean that.

 

Although it is true that no two extant manuscripts agree 100%, could it not be possible that one extant fragment does accurately match the originals? </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely... but God did not decide to identify which one to us making the whole possibility moot.

 

Will Kinney has posted here.

His skills at arguing are infinitely stronger than his arguments.

Virtually all of his arguments require you to accept one standard for the KJV and another for the versions he opposes. IOW's, he doesn't use fair balances as required by the Bible but instead employs double standards that many unwary folks won't recognize because he argues well.

 

I share that opinion to a great degree... however the KJV doesn't always follow the "Majority Text". In some places, it follows no Greek ms at all.

 

Will Kinney has posted here.

His skills at arguing are infinitely stronger than his arguments.

Virtually all of his arguments require you to accept one standard for the KJV and another for the versions he opposes. IOW's, he doesn't use fair balances as required by the Bible but instead employs double standards that many unwary folks won't recognize because he argues well. </font>[/QUOTE]I've documented many of
his double standards on this BB at:

Ed's Catalogue of KJVO Doubles

As always, this compilation of double standards
is still not complete.

 

Yes, I will.

When you insinuate that anyone who does not cow and bow to the KJV does not believe that we have the inerrant word of God, then you have slandered us/me. You might not feel or believe that you have, but you have brother.

I believe in the inerrant word of God. And I believe that this inerrant word is not only found in the KJV, but in each and every valid bible translation.

Nope, the "burning bosom" syndrome doesn't mean anything to me. Mexican food can give me the same feeling.

What you hold to is personal preference. I just do not understand why it is so hard for KJVO's to admit this.

That you have the inerrant word of God? No, that is true.

That the inerrant word of God is only found in the KJV? Yes, that is false.

Yes, they can have confidence in it...and they can have the same confidence in many other translations as well.

You show your misunderstanding of my/our position here, Greg. I, nor anyone else here that I am aware of, thinks/believes that I/we must consult multiple versions to our "truth". I believe that I can pick up any one of many translations and have the truth...no sifting, no comparing, no "picking and choosing".

"I have never had a problem understanding"..."I have run into nothing that prayer and an occasional trip into my Strongs concordance and possibly my copy of Websters couldn't clear up." That, dear Greg, is called doubling back. Either you have never had any problem, or you have. You can't have both.

That is your choice, and your personal preference. Just allow us ours, if you don't mind?

Nothing wrong with that. I am pretty much the same. I just don't define "Bible-believing" as "King James Bible believing only".

I doubt you would much like my preaching, Greg. I am not a shouter. I am not a hacker. I am not a thumper. I am not a runner, jumper, spitter, screamer, ranter. But I open the word and expound it, striving to honor my Lord with the fruit of study and perseverence. I do not strike out on my own, nor do I chase rabbits for thirty minutes and call it a sermon.

Greg, this is not a personal attack. But I feel that you have insulted me, along with any and all who do not hold to the King James Version Only viewpoint.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Amen, Brother Trotter -- Preach it!