You can't possibly be serious? David claims that he too was born in sin and he was not blaming his mother for any type of fornication, but taking responsibility for his own sin - Psa. 51.
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Original Sin and Romans 5
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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You can't possibly be serious? David claims that he too was born in sin and he was not blaming his mother for any type of fornication, but taking responsibility for his own sin - Psa. 51.
That indeed is so obvious that all Calvinists with the very omniscience of God can clearly declare that 100% of all non-elect infants will go to Hell. And just like God, they can tell which ones are elect and which ones are not, as demonstrated in the above post.
The truth is: Every person is born "wicked." Thus the necessity of the "new birth."
My apologies; I read this line from one of your posts on page 1:
Apparently, from this post, you do believe that babies can go to hell.
and took it to mean that you didn't believe babies will go to hell.
Apparently, from this post, you do believe that babies can go to hell.
Yes, I was speaking a bit with tongue in cheek. But remember in the Psalms David frequently classifies people as wicked or righteous. Obviously in this verse,
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
he is speaking about wicked adults that have been wicked all their lives. It's not to be taken literally that they speak lies as newborns. It's a bit of hyperbole.
So you just ignore "as soon as they be born" but retranslate it "as soon as they be adults"????? Why not just write your own bible?
You completely contradict yourself.
"I most certainly do not believe infants go to hell. So you understood me correctly the first time. All who go to hell are those who are judged "according to their works" and dying infants have no works as they have no ability to personal choose good or evil just as God told Jonah."
Are they wicked from conception or not? If they are, they are guilty and can only be saved by grace through faith, not judged on their works. That's a false salvation.
Adults = saved by grace through faith
Infants = saved by works
I would caution anyone to take Psalms literally or build doctrine on it. David is basically saying, "these people are so wicked they've been liars since they were born". He's not saying that newborns are all liars. Sheesh.
You completely contradict yourself.
"I most certainly do not believe infants go to hell. So you understood me correctly the first time. All who go to hell are those who are judged "according to their works" and dying infants have no works as they have no ability to personal choose good or evil just as God told Jonah."
Are they wicked from conception or not? If they are, they are guilty and can only be saved by grace through faith, not judged on their works. That's a false salvation.
Adults = saved by grace through faith
Infants = saved by works
You forget, that I also believe that it is God that worketh in us both TO WILL and therefore it is not inconsistent to believe that death is appointed by God and this is an act of mercy by God who works in the infant also to "WILL" repentance and faith in the gospel. Remember, the infant John the Baptists leaped "for joy" when HE HEARD the glad tidings of the Messianic birth, WHILE STILL IN THE WOMB, so don't tell me that God cannot make the dying infant understand the gospel. Remember, God himself preached the gospel unto Abraham, so don't tell me that God can't do the same for dying infants. So absolutely no inconsistency at all - period, nada, zilch!
I would caution you not to despise a Prophet. If you remember David is a prophet of God and what He wrote was inspired scripture:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet,
You explain how David could even make that comment without either lying or by prophetic insight?
I'm not despising him at all.
Lighten up. It's a matter of interpretation. David is simply saying these people were so wicked it's as if they've been lying since they were born. It's a bit of hyperbole. Unless you literally believe God gave an infant the ability to speak, and to speak lies. Is that it?
No the only hyperbole is your attempt to provide a serious interpretation. This is not David's first statement on this subject. He says the same thing about his own birth (Psa. 51:5). He is not the only prophet who confirms this.
Apparently, you did not thoroughly read my post on that verse. You don't have to speak Hebrew (or English) to lie. Dumb (inability to speak) people can lie. There are a multitude of ways a person can lie. They can lie by the tone of voice, they can lie by their actions. Apparently, you have had no children or been around children as infants. Most infants cannot speak a language until they are about 2 years old. Any parent can tell you they can lie long before they can speak intelligably. I have had five children and I know exactly what David is saying about the fallen nature of infants manifested almost literally as soon as they are born, and saying about himself, as no one needs to teach children to be selfish, self-centered, cruel and lie - they can do it NATURALLY all by themselve, that is a UNIVERSAL truth that David is simply expressing. If you don''t live in la la land you know this to be true.
You are hilarious. I have two teenagers. I know that children can lie. I also know that infants can't lie.
I think you need to read the rest of Psalm 58 and notice all the similes David uses. For example if the wicked literally speak lies as babies from birth, do they also:
have poison like serpents, are deaf like cobras that can't be charmed (verse 4,5)
have fangs of young lions (verse 6)
are snails that melt (verse 8)
??
So, according to you "dumb" persons can't lie either simply because they cannot vocalize? Is that right? Your interpretation of "thou shalt not lie" is phariseeical as they too interpreted the commandments precisely in keeping with how you do.
If you had two teenagers were you simply an absent father between their birth and the time they could vocalize? Have you ever had an infant scream as though they were hurt or hungry or the diapers were wet or sullied, when in fact they simply had leaned very quickly that screaming gets your attention or they are simply angry and thowing a fit because they didn't get their way, or what they want? An infant looks so innocent and sweet, but have you ever experienced just plain meanness by an infant in anger? That is lying.
The only reason you don't see much at birth is because they are physically limited to express themselves, but as soon as they are able to use more physical expression it comes out raw. Do you live in la la land? You must! THE NEXT THING YOU ARE GOING TO TELL US IS THAT YOU TAUGHT THEM HOW TO LIE, BE SELFISH, SELF-CENTERED, ENVY, ETC. Did you? Was it simply there environmant or your example that taught them? Surely you are not that simplistic to believe that are you?
You need to learn proper hermeneutics! Do you notice the word "like" in those descriptions? That is called a "simile"! Do you know what a simile is? It is a comparison of one thing to another thing. HOWEVER, HE DOES NOT USE A SIMILE IN VERSE 5 IN HIS DESCRIPTION OF LYING OR OF BIRTH!
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You are attributing motivations to the infant that you cannot possibly know. Maybe the child is crying for attention, plain and simple, and not deviously thinking to himself, "I'm going to cry as if my diaper was wet, so I can get attention." Maybe the kid realizes if he cries he gets attention and it's that simple. No lying involved.
Anger = Lying. Okie-Dokie. So now you are saying God is a liar, because God gets angry.
Behold, the name of the Lord comes from afar,
Burning with His anger,
And His burden is heavy;
His lips are full of indignation,
And His tongue like a devouring fire. Isaiah 30:27
No, I don't live in la-la land. However, you are now living in my Killfile Land. Good bye.
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You are denying the insight of a prophet that you cannot possibly be qualified to deny! Moreover, I did not say EVERY time a child cries he is lying, but you are claiming it is impossible for them to lie at all, and any parent with common sense knows thats a complete la la land imagination at work.
You need to read more carefully as I said no such thing. I simply used the example of anger or simply wanting attention as causes for crying instead of any pain, or hunger or discomfort as a normal cause for crying. The child has learned that if he throws a fit, you come running, when he is not hurt, hungry or in any physical discomfort. If you have experienced terrible two's and three's you know how obvious the fallen nature can be manifested in a child, unless you do live in la la land?
Those who do that are basically gutting the Pauline teaching of the Gospel and the Cross...