ORIGINAL SIN---Exactly what is it according to CALVINISM?

ILUVLIGHT.

Well thank you for reminding me that Jesus is God in the flesh but let me remind you that you are wrong again because you do not know the scriptures.
LK 23:8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer.
Was Herod not a sinner? Did Jesus speak to him? God can do as He pleases and if it pleases Him He can not only speak to the dead but can make them alive as He pleases.

I did not make a statement about God speaking to sinners I asked a question. How can I be proved wrong in asking a question? This should be interesting.

What scripture did I quote?

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
This verse deals specifically with the fact that people die not having broken a command from God as babies do. The wages of sin is death. What was the sin? Ask Jesus to explain it to you.

We have two natures. Your idea of sin is what we do but the scriptural idea is what we are. As Christians we are sinners still. Everything we do is sin still. We are not able as Christians to do good. Have you ever done good? Think again. Everything you do and say and think is sin and if that is true of the world it is also true of Christians.
RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Who will rescue me from this body of death? It is still future for Christians but a certainty.

Only those appointed to everlasting life will respond to the message. Only those that respond to the message are alive in God the rest are dead and deaf and dumb because the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

johnp.

 

Wes.

Man is spirit and flesh but apart from that you seem to have stumbled onto the truth. You have just described spiritual death in man.

That is true but sometimes His words are Spirit and they are death. The death sentence rings like this 'but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.' John 10:26.
But you don't believe 'but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.' because you are not His sheep.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

There you go again making statements as if they are so with out one scripture to back it up. Sorry pal your wrong again and this has all been told you by several people right here at BB.com
There is nothing in scripture that even remotely suggest that men are dead, deaf, and dumb, because of sin.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT.

RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."

RO 11:9 And David says:

"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

RO 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;
Here are somemore for you;
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

The thing that you don't see is that the Word is speaking about the Jews in both places. I'm not arguing for the Jews but you will notice that verse 28 that I just showed you clearly says that the Gentiles will hear it. The Jew were blinded because of unbelief,because of there rejection of God's Grace.
From what you quoted from your Bible;
RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
This from mine;
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
What's the difference
The elect didn't obtain but rather election obtained it Your version makes it look like the elect were seperate from those who rejected Christ. They were not seperate. Ekologe means election. Ekolotos means elect. I realize that Ekologe can be used both ways in modern Greek but In Original Greek I don't believe it was ever used to mean the elect.
Not to mention that;
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

This tells the reason they were blinded. Notice the fall. In order to fall from Salvation one must have it to fall from.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

This is way out of the teaching of the parable of the sower. If you think this is the teaching you missed the interpretation of the parable that Jesus gives us in Matt. 13:18-23. The lesson that you are trying to teach using this parable is not the lesson it was intended to teach.

 

Hi Pastor Jeff;

Let's take a look;
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

This one wasn't saved.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

This one wasn't saved either.

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

This one has no fruit. So he wasn't saved either.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold some sixty, some thirty.

But this one is saved because he is founded on good ground. no thorns or thistles around to choke it out of Him. He also has root because of the good ground. The root is knowledge.

Now Wes said;

Plant means christian did you think he was talking about real farming
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

He was applying it to human lives. Go back and read what he typed. He was relating it to why some people die before maturity. You misread what he typed. he misapplied the teaching. He was not talking about Christians at all, as you have assumed.

 

Hi Jeff;
No I didn't misread it. Your problem is you didn't read the first sentence. He used the human element as further example. It is you who has the problem understanding what is said.
The plant is the Christian the human example is just another example.
I don't have any special understanding Jeff, but I can read.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT.

Let me remind you.
You said , "There you go again making statements as if they are so with out one scripture to back it up."
I posted Romans 11:7-10 which is one scripture to back up what I said. It does say that it was God that gave them this spirit of stupor was it not?
You, in reply, attack my scripture with a load of your own to break my scripture. If this is so, that your scripture breaks my scripture, there is a contradiction. If they can be reconciled then there must be a case for saying it's you that's the contradiction must there not?

johnp.

 

Wes.

Not every human conceived becomes an adult human!
So it appears. Why not? Why do they die? They have done nothing. My insistance is 'why do babies die'? Why do babies receive the wages of sin Wes? Because it seems to be God's plan for his creation! Take your religious blinders off and look around you, the truth is evident everywhere you look! Yes I know it's part of God's plan and it is all around me that is why I asked the question, "Why do babies die?" They ain't done nothing to no one.
Protest as much as you like and send as much smoke up as you like but you have no way of advoiding the only conclusion the scriptures bring us to.
Before they have done either good or bad babies receive the penalty due to sin. It's a winner.

I will. I will spend time in trying to put it together properly for you. I have already completed the first two explanations. The third will take a little longer. I think your rendition of the Parable of the Sower will be involved in it.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

Well this is what You said;

This what you claim that supports this position;
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

If you'll notice this whole passage is about some of Israel not about all men. This only happend to the some of the Jews. I'm not Jewish nor do I have any blindness nor am I hard of hearing nor did I ever need to be regenerated to know my Savior. No one is saved with out faith first period. And by the way this was writtem 4000 years after Adam.

Now you may see what you claim is there but it can only be a hallucination. Trust me this passage does not say that the natural man is deaf and dumb and lacking understanding.
Nor does it say that we inherited Adams likeness Nor does it say we died spiritually because of Adams sin. It simply doesn't say what you claim.
What it is saying is that Part of Israel had this happen to them there blindness to seeing Christ and understanding the gospel when they admit this;

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
Mike

 

Wes.

Me? Surely not me.

Why do they die then? Simple enough question I would have thought. They have done no evil deeds so there is nothing by which they are judged. Why do they die then as dying is receiving the wages of sin?

So what? If two types of death are mentioned then two types of death are included. Why do babies die?

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The death as payment for sin is a spiritual death and you die spiritually after you have been judged as a sinner.

Because it has been appointed to man to die once.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike