ORIGINAL SIN---Exactly what is it according to CALVINISM?

ILUVLIGHT.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
I gave that as proof of, "I said, Adam caused this disconnect and passed it on because he was the mould from which we all sprang."

Are we made alive to Christ? We must have been dead before. Dead men cannot do anything. We are dead in our sins and transgressions.
You quoted me.

You answered me with.

You said there is not one scripture that even remotely suggests that men are dead, deaf, and dumb, because of sin.
I answered you with Romans 11:7-10.
Then you said, The Jew were blinded because of unbelief,because of there rejection of God's Grace.
Yet you say, "There is nothing in scripture that even remotely suggest that men are dead, deaf, and dumb, because of sin."

Why do babies die?

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

The wages of sin is death. Why do babies die?

Is there not the second death?
REV 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
What was your point?

johnp.

 

Wes.

To become a sheep one needs to have been chosen before the creation of the world by God.
Regeneration comes about at a time set by God and in an appropriate way for those so chosen. All those He chose will be effectually called.
Regeneration is the beginning of a renewal in the individual and he, with a renewed spirit is able to worship God in faith and not before. Reconnected.
I became a Christian because I wanted to get a Pastor off my back and so I agreed with him to pray to Jesus and if there was nothing then that would have been him off my back. But Jesus met with me in that prayer, as I was talking into the air to a nonexistant thing people called God, Jesus made Himself known to me. "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
This is true of me. Praise Him!

Jesus in His infinite wisdom decided to include the Children in the round up. A great honour. A great privilege.
"I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
But making disciples includes teaching those who God has set His love on. It is a making sure that sound doctrine is passed on. How can people hear the voice of Jesus if we use anothers voice?
If it is not sound doctrine then the voice of Jesus is lost and so are those who believe they believe because of a good argument but that is not Christ's way. Only Christ's words will save.

What you believe is not God's word. You believe in something else. Change your mind as much as you like but you cannot give life to yourself. You cannot hope to beat your fallen nature, it almost foored Jesus.
You deny original sin. In this condition you are incapable of accepting the things of God.
JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? 10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."
You are deceived. You believe that man is cast about wherever like seeds and chance take the lot of us. God does not behave in that way with the real seeds let alone man.
You repy no He doesn't when He says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
You say that it depends on man and God says, "RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
God says, "Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" You say no He hasn't. Anyway that's only Paul.
Jesus said, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
And you say belief is not a work.
JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
You say you can fall away. Jesus says you can't. I never go hungry He fills me with His presence. Lost in wonder, love and awe. What more could I want? How can anything be better than that simple statement Jesus makes. It blows my mind completely. The very idea that I could see any good in me that would detract from the statement that it was God's will that I should be saved fills me with horror. Tis by grace that I be saved! Having connections with the Almighty. The seperation cannot be bridged by us, the sinful mind is hostile to God. "No it's not." You say. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. "Yes it can." You say.

My sheep hear my voice Jesus said.

johnp.

 

Wes.

You say that just after you say you don't know. Either you know or you don't know, which? I cannot answer for every single infant death, especially those where the parents are born again believers. Only God knows why those infants are taken in death.
Yet you say, So to say that sin is the reason for their death is simply a false, uneducated statement. But you say you don't know?

The wages of sin is death. God told us. I told you it was a winner did I not? Uneducated statement? The wages of sin is death.
It's just denial.
You say children die and that is not due to sin. You say sin is longer a factor in the economy of God. You ask why I call you blind?

Now for the third time of asking, what did you mean by saying that Hell is a momentary thing?

johnp.

 

Wes.

Deliberate Abortion is not an act of God, birthing Drug addicted babies is not an Act of God, Tossing newborn babies into dumpsters is not an act of God, accidents resulting in the death of human life is not an Act of God.
Why do they die then? What do you think, He just sits there and watches? It's one or the other.

You are not making much smoke. Do you believe this is the word of God or not, "The wages of sin is death"?

There is your god again. Our Lady of the Luck of the Draw. Accidents? My God is Sovereign.
JOB 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."

"The wages of sin is death" God says.

And to make the statement that sin is the cause of the death of those "little children" is a False, uneducated statement! Wes says.

johnp.

 

Wes.

You said.

It would have been just as easy to answer the question would it not?
You asked me to tell you why I kept saying you were not one of the sheep.
In my reply I made use of some of your denials of scripture and remembered that you had not answered me about the 'momentary' thing.
I got the impression from that word that you might be denying the everlasting conscious punishment of sinners receiving the wrath of God in Hell so I asked you.
Nothing wrong in that was there? So, about the question then. What did you mean by 'momentary'?

The wages of sin is death. Settled.

In your next post you are in error with the quotes.
The first one reads;
Originally posted by johnp.:
Wes.

Deliberate Abortion is not an act of God, birthing Drug addicted babies is not an Act of God, Tossing newborn babies into dumpsters is not an act of God, accidents resulting in the death of human life is not an Act of God.
Why do they die then? What do you think, He just sits there and watches? It's one or the other.

I would like to point out that it should read;

Originally posted by Wes.:

Deliberate Abortion is not an act of God, birthing Drug addicted babies is not an Act of God, Tossing newborn babies into dumpsters is not an act of God, accidents resulting in the death of human life is not an Act of God.

Originally posted by johnp.:
Why do they die then? What do you think, He just sits there and watches? It's one or the other.

What do you think then, He just sits there and watches?

johnp.

 

Wes.

You said yourself that the spirit of man is seperated from God. That is sin.
Who's sin?
The person conceived.

Are you a parent? "little children" are innocent of sin!
The little angels are simple and to the point. They have a trust of adults and are easy to teach. When they hear a thing it means the thing they hear such as, God will harden who He likes. The child will believe that.
Jesus died for the sins of His people. The child will believe this. It's called brain washing I think. The child will learn from it's family and will hold those things as true.
This is what you must become like.
MT 18:2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

But there is sin in the Kingdom of God is there not? I am in the Kingdom of God and I am a sinner. Heaven itself is contaminated by sin. A large number of it's inhabitants rebelled.
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 2 Peter 3:13. But that was only Peter.
REV 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. But that was only John.

But you err. My sins have been paid for. I am considered as righteous as God Himself. And I did enter the Kingdom of God. His rest. The curtain was torn in two. There is no obstacle between us. We are face to face day and night I stand before His throne waiting on Him. That is the Christians lot whether they acknowledge that or not. As for the lost, they also serve Him day and night as His servants to do His will. When He has finished with them He will destroy them. Like He did with Pharaoh. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10:31.

I'll keep the sunglasses then 'a' the Lake of Fire must be quite bright?

Break it down into simple sentences man I can't handle that. I mean what does, are innocent of their own sin, mean? How can anyone be innocent of their own sin. Or is it an admission that you now believe children are sinners?
I asked you why God just sits there and does nothing about it. Not in so many words mind you. So I will ask you now in so many words why does God just sit there and do nothing while a child is whatever?

Why do babies die then?

johnp.

 

Wes.

It must be more than a propensity old chap because a propensity is probably not actual sin but babies die and babies dying means that the wages of sin are being picked up.

But they die and death is the wages of sin. I know it is the bible tells me so.

Well I don't believe you because the bible does not say that does it?

One is subject to the law the moment one is conceived because babies die and death is a judgement that the one that dies has sinned. David told you but you don't believe him, PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
But then that was only David.

You give the impression that the child in the womb is in some sort of tomb. I think I would disagree with you. I do not see the infant as deaf and blind to the outside world but involved with it in many ways.
That John was saved and could recognise his Master's approach proves that unborn babies can know more than some people already born. Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

Just in case you are elevating me above my station I would like to point out to you that I am not the Judge and therefore find no one guilty of anything.
But God says that the baby is a trangressor of His law and is therefore subject to it's punishment. Death reveals this truth.

Do they? But I was talking about children not grown ups. Grown ups will go to the place that tickles their ears. I would not attend an Arminian Church as an Arminian would not attend a Calvinistic one.

Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
Why? Because they have broken the law. You don't think so? Only the wages of sin again. LK 11:44 "Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."
Knowing a law is not required to break it.

Now there's a phrase you don't often see in the bible. PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
"There is no one righteous, not even one; 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
INNOCENCE REIGNS! Is that from the New Alternative Bible or the old one?

No law no sin no sin no death. No law no Sovereign no Sovereign no God. "No God." A fool says.

John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
I don't know if I understand this. I thought that you were saying something like God wound the universe up and went off for a kip. That things are as they are and God will sort it out at the end. Which means that you are saying He just sits there while a child has done to it what should not be done to it?

johnp.

 

Wes.

Precisely the question Paul expects. Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
Then he puts the boot in, "Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
Who do you think you are Wes? Not nice is it?
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

johnp.

 

Wes.

It's been a while since Eli has had a trot out! There was no atonement for his house was there? Your 'all humanity' must be limited by Eli's house at least must it not. Of course you can try to twist the scripture to mean anything you like but the truth remains that, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
That 'never' there in that verse, that is an important word isn't it? Limited Atonement must be a fact.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
It is not faith that marks a man saved but the Holy Spirit that marks a man saved.

 

Wes.

You have such a small god he hardly registers with me. My God is Sovereign over the whole of creation. Nowhere is outside His realm or His Sovereign control. All creation serves Him and His purpose. My King rules.

They are one and the same as well you know.

Why on earth would you think that I think that? I thought my label, which I put on myself to let people know where I am coming from, would show you where I am coming from.
That Twilight Zone stuff above belongs back in your imagination.

Of course. I will stop using the word 'lost' as it is misleading. Reprobate will do.

johnp.