ORIGINAL SIN---Exactly what is it according to CALVINISM?

Wes.

Not pure. Not all that foolish. It does point out that the bible says it does not depend on you but you say it does that's all.
You say salvation does depend on your belief but the scriptures say it does not depend on your faith but on God.

I understand what you say. if it was the atonement that saved then it would read, 'it is by atonement you are saved' The scripture says it is by grace does it not? Yes or no will do.

While God is in HIS state of Grace toward HIS creation
What is this? Where does it come from. A state of grace?
But you contradict yourself. While what you say sounds quite orthodox you do not mean what you say? You say it is not of ourselves which is a lie because you claim the point of salvation is your choice. Your belief. This makes the difference you say between those going to Hell and you going to Heaven, your belief. So to say it is not of ourselves is nothing but a deception that you try to perpetuate but it don't wash. Jesus sees those who believe in Him... You say it is your belief that saves you not Jesus. So for you to say it is not of ourselves is nothing but a lie and a deception. Salvation is all of you.

What's yours?

What do you mean 'most of us'? Have you become spokesman for most of us? Do you mean that the person ceases to exist? You speak like a Mormon or a Jehovah's witness. You use words to confuse not to make clear.

You see how difficult you make it? You start by saying a person goes to the Lake of Fire and then you show the consequences to the rest of us. He will never be seen again by us.
Do you mean that the person ceases to exist? This is the truth is it not? Another denial in language meant to deceive.
Death is seperation from God not a cessation of existence. To try to make it a cessation of existence is one more of your errors.

That is simply not true, anger or no, as you believe so you are saved. If that is not salvation by ones own efforts I don't know what is.

Not at all. What I am saying is that you have no faith. It is a make believe faith you have. It comes from you, it originates in you and what originates in a sinner is sin alone. Sin does not please God. You try to escape that by saying that there is no original sin. A lie. This you hope will cause you to possess something good to offer to God, your belief in Him, as a substitute for the faith God gives His children. That God says believing is a work makes you spend a lot of effort in denying this fact. Fact it is though, John 6:29 JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." And that makes faith a work. It is God's work in His children not their own. The only thing that is worthy to be offered back to God is that which God puts in a man.
In hope you claim that the end of life for sinners is cessation of existence but your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the grave will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it. As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through." The understanding of this message
will bring sheer terror. The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you. ISA 28:18-20.
ISA 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?

Salvation is by grace. That is the demerited favour of God to an individual regardless of that individuals behaviour. In grace He effectually calls those He has chosen out of the same lump and bestows on those the gift of faith. That is the only way salvation comes to man. It's called mercy and God has mercy on who He wants to have mercy on. Mercy would not be mercy to you because you believed. That is called wages. An obligation for God.

johnp.

 

Wes.

posted 09 February, 2005 11:17
That's what I said you said. Salvation is of Wes.

johnp.

 

Wes. posted 06 February, 2005 20:28 page 4

You said;
Babies that have not committed a sin are innocent and sinless!
I said;
But they die and death is the wages of sin. I know it is the bible tells me that the wages of sin is death.
You said;
Jesus died, what was his sin?
My reply;
Mine.

Cutesie or what?

johnp.

 

Wes.

If I quote you I quote you word for word except sometimes I remove a mistake, like taking the 'is' out of that little ditty I knocked off yesterday.
If I say that you are saying I am not quoting you because if I quote you I quote you but if I am saying you are saying I am saying that is what I hear you saying. That is the conclusion I draw from your words.
When you say that salvation is all of God and I hear you say that you must decide whether to believe then I conclude you to be deceptive in the choice of your language. It is not all of God is it? It is not at all to do with Him but all to do with you and whether you believe or not. How does Jesus save you? Does He decide for you? How does Wes save you? By believing. This then makes you the saviour and like I said, like God Himself except now He is no longer a Saviour but an enabler.

If this is what you mean in your post posted 09 February, 2005 15:24 then do set me straight old chap.

johnp.

 

Wes.

Now you know that is nonsense. Where have I ever given you the impression I don't believe in Jesus?
That I have the wrong doctrine is all you can say of me. As for believing in Jesus then I am in buddy!
All you do when you argue with a Calvinist is preach to the converted. When a Calvinist preaches to an Arminian he preaches to a person highy likely to be outside the pasture.
Where have I given the impression that I don't believe in Jesus?

johnp.

 

Wes,

I would like to write, not to discuss an issue, but to warn you in a friendly, brotherly manner. You wrote:

Obviously, you take seriously how other people represent you and your words. That is why this recent statement by you troubles me:

Think, for a minute, what you are saying. You are saying that I am a false prophet when I preach. Furthermore, you are saying people like John Piper, John MacArthur, Charles Spurgeon, and Al Mohler are all false prophets.

If we follow your statement to its logical conclusion, you have just called every Calvinist a “non-Christian.”

Calvinists can and do preach the Bible. In fact, I have never met and I haven’t even heard of a “Liberal” Calvinist.

Did you know that a 5-point Calvinist started the Baptist Missionary Movement in England? His name was William Carey. His supporters were all Particular Baptists (Calvinist Baptist).

Jonathan Edward, who even the secularists declare was the foremost theological mind in American history, was a Calvinist.

Christianity since the 1500’s is full of Calvinist Christians who have preached salvation to the lost as a matter of calling and joy.

I have friends (good and prominent friends) who are more Arminian than Calvinist. I don’t question their salvation as you have done here. When certain preacher friends of mine who happen to be Arminian stand in the pulpit and preach, I listen. Why? Because they are great Christians and I look up to them. Also, they are great men of character and great expositors of God’s word.

Now, since you don’t want to be “Libeled,” I will ask you not to libel the Calvinists on this board. I, for one, will not stand for anyone to call Calvinists “non-Christians” when it is so blatantly false.

This tactic that you have used in this most recent discussion with johnp is below you. Actually, name-calling is below all of us. Therefore, I will ask you, in friendship, to be the man you are supposed to be and discuss issues and to avoid the ad hominem argument.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Wes.

When a Calvinist preaches it is falsehood! When a Christian Preaches it is bible!
Below is your post posted 06 February, 2005 21:27
I would suggest that you have the attitude of a bigot. I have attended, and indeed been a respected member of many churches of both persuasions. I have been Southern Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Nazarene, Assembly of God, Four Square, Missionary Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Evangelical Free, Conservative Baptist, and several more. No, I am not simply a church hopper, I have actually moved around the country and the world extensively, and attend which ever church has the better reputation in the neighborhood. Seldom have I been disappointed as they all have something to offer. Sticking with one doctrine causes one to become bigoted toward that doctrine. To gain a better understanding of the church, and the scriptures, you really should personally visit other churches so that you can see their FAITH is the same FAITH that YOU claim for yourself.

Would you like to retract the statement above or When a Calvinist preaches it is falsehood!... One of them is out of place and contradictory.

It is not an accusation. If I say to anyone that their faith is wrong then I say it as a warning. I am obliged to do so.

How you come to have it if indeed you do!
I became a Christian because I wanted to get a Pastor off my back. I agreed to pray to Jesus with him and if there was nothing, if Jesus did not reveal Himself, then that would have been the Pastor off my back. But Jesus met with me in that prayer, as I was talking into the air to a nonexistant thing people called God, Jesus made Himself known to me. "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." This is true of me. Praise Him!
...its source is...
To become a sheep one needs to have been chosen before the creation of the world by God. That is why Jesus tells us that there are two tribes on earth. GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
It is fixed and unbending. People are either or. It is because of him that I am in Christ Jesus, who has become for me wisdom from God--that is, my righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." 1 Cor 1:30-31. Not because of me but because of Christ.
Regeneration comes about at a time set by God and in an appropriate way for those so chosen. All those He chose before the creation of the world will be effectually called.
Regeneration is the beginning of a renewal in the individual and he, with a renewed spirit is able to worship God in faith and not before. Reconnected in spirit to the creator of life. A circumcised heart.
I want to know what YOUR definition of FAITH is
I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins. In this He took away any punishment that was due to me. In this He took all my guilt from me and suffered my punishment in my place.
This is my faith. That I believe He died for my sins and I believe and trust Him in this.

He is my righteousness, my holiness and my redemption.

Will that do?

johnp.

 

Wes.

You still have not defined faith...
It is trust in God.
...nor provided evidence of its source!
It comes from God by grace. Eph 2:8-9.

johnp.

 

Wes.

When a Calvinist preaches it is falsehood!
No, I do not equate all calvinists with wrong preaching

Me thinks you speak with forked tongue.

johnp.

 

Wes.

You still have not defined faith...
It is trust in God.
...nor provided evidence of its source!
It comes from God by grace. Eph 2:8-9.

You define it for me then why leave me out in the dark for so long?

johnp.

 

Wes.

JN 14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

No they are the same thing. Trust in God; trust also in me. I'll put some thought into this I think but I think off hand that no is the answer.

People do believe in things don't they? They put their trust in things like cash and doings. They lean on wealth and property and image and so on but it fails them in the end because in the end we die because we are sinners.

I believe all things come from God and that all men believe as we do because God wills in our will to do His will.
All faith comes from God. Idolatry comes from God.

From His suppliers where else?
That's a stupid question if you forgive me. And if you don't!

He don't need water either where'd He get that from?
But then I'm contrary. I'm not sure about 'He certainly has no need of it himself!' because He seems to me as if He has enough faith in Himself. I'm sure He trusts Himself. I'm sure that He trusts Himself enough that He convinced me to put my trust in Him. Now you tell me He has no need to trust Himself? If you ask me He is a bit boastful about this fact that He knows what He is up to. I have seen and know blind faith and God has loads of it about Himself. You should aquaint yourself with His Autobiography! It's called the bible. Or, How I created Everything in Six Days.
There's a film as well.

Good point.

Us. He hopes for us. The sheep. The chosen. The beloved for this love affair to happen for Him from us. He's crazy about me and can hardly contain Himself for want of me to fly into His arms. That's why He is patient. He wants and desires me but He suspends that so that all the sheep are in before consumation man! But He struggles as well. He wants me but the grass is greener if He waits. For me and Him.

No He is not Wes!

Me. I am the Pearl of Great Price man! Can't you see that He went and sold everything to buy that field where I was hidden?
MT 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
That is not about man selling everything for God but God selling everything for me. To possess me. He loves me with an everlasting love. There are loads of scriptures that turn around.
I am His Bride, I am His Body and His reason for being. He could not live without me. He wanted this. He wanted it this way. He is not sufficient of Himself. He wanted to reveal His glory! Never heard anything like this before have you? The Second Adam is not sufficient as the first one wasn't. We will make 1. He must be whole with me. This was His desire.

God sees everything therefore this is a reference to our faith not His. Easy peasy.

It's like I said He hopes for me. Crazy ain't it? Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
A much neglected verse I believe. Lost in wonder, love and awe.
Have you read the Song of Songs? That chick that is featured is me.

A faithless God I shall pass by on the other side. I'm no chicken but I do believe in preserving life especially when it's mine. But for the one thing in that sentence, it is you not me that worships a faithless god. Mine is better than a Four Legged Thing. And you know they never let you down.

Yea? Really? So your faith comes from knowledge where did your spirit get this knowledge? To be honest with you I believe you are not saved. Your knowledge is futile. It is by grace not knowledge. Whoever told you it was by knowledge that you are saved has sold you a pup. It's the sheep hearing the Shepherds voice not knowledge. Martha had no idea nor the thief and loads in my Church.
Knowledge is a condition?

Which might be a serious problem for both of us because I can say the same as you. But I can see it. It's tangible. He is ever present. Everything is His work.

Only to me because I know that God is causing everything I see and smell and feel. It cannot originate in those things because it is only through the word that He calls those chosen.

Sola scripture. The Heavens declare the glory of God. But the Heavens are not for faith but increase in faith. Faith comes by hearing and then the Heavens really do display the glory of the most High.

johnp.

 

Can you help me with my questions? Explain Calvins understanding of the concept of Original Sin. Where does this sin come from and how? What are the results of original sin on our natural abilities to seek and know God?

ANY kind of help would be abliged.