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Original Sin Or Committed Sin
- Thread starter drfuss
- Start date
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Its a good question. Most people I know hold to the age of accountability. A good friend of mine who was a marine in Vietnam once told me that was the reason no marine would go to hell. Because they haven't reached the age of accountability. All joking aside. If a child has not reached the age where they can distinguish a sinful act and choose to do it anyway, they will be in heaven. This seems to be in line with what David said about his new infant boy who had died. That he will go to be with him. However, I'm not sure if David meant dead or if he meant in the eternal here after.
Catholics and I'm guessing Anglican's believe that if you're not baptized you're on your way to hell by having a sin nature. Guilty by birth in otherwords. From my discussion with Agnus Dei it would seem Original sin in their understanding is different from our own so the guilt of birth may not be associated in Orthodox teaching.
The thing is as we mature because of our natures we will sin and we are all guilty of it. There are scripture verses indicating that we are born in iniquity or in sin.
My personal opinion is that I lean towards the accountability aspect but in truth I don't know. My hope for them is eternal life but I trust that God no matter which is more accurate is a faithful and just God. And his desire is that all men might be saved and this consideration extends to the unborn and the very young that die as well.
Yes (oh, you mean it's either/or?).
Seriously, I concur with Thinkingstuff, although I'd replace "age of accountability" with "position of accountability". There are those who are mentally infirmed, retarded, or otherwise debilitated, who don't possess accountability in that state, regardless of age.
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Both, God's grace must save all from the moment of conception. What you are really asking is, does God save those who cannot "choose Him"?
If one believes the answer to this can be found in the scriptures, then one must lean hard towards Calvinism.
If one believes the answer to this can be found outside of the scriptures, then one must lean hard towards universal enlightenment.
I personally don't wish to go to either one of those, so I just say I do not know, but God does and trust He will do what is right.
What we do know is that all are cursed from conception and in need of God's grace. How God applys that to the unlearned and uncapeable, He does not specifically say but does say that all need the blood of Christ as the cure.
:thumbsup:
Age or position of accountability may make us feel all warm and cozy but it just simply is not biblical. To teach this as truth would be to claim super natural enlightenment from God. Now I know that the Catholics believe that they have special powers given by God to address such questions as these. They can have the Pope speak dirrectly to God and clear it all up. I personally believe that is poo-poo, because that in and of itself is unbiblical.
Hey, there are all kinds of pagan religions that claim to have speacial enlightenments to these questions, but I would rather just stick with what has been written for us by God and not mix enlightenments with Christianity. The Israelites were always mixing God with the pagan beliefs. God called this adultery and I am sure views it the same way today.
:thumbsup:
Is it your contention, then, that a stillborn baby is categorically concigned to Hell? Is that the biblical message we should be sharing at a baby's funeral? I'm not so sure.
In actuality, Revelation has Jesus saying "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears....". There's an implication that the knock must be heard. There are a lot of people who, through no spiritual fault of their own, are prevented from hearing the knock. A stillborn baby never has the ability to hear the knock, let alone answer the door.
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Johnv sez:Quote:
Originally Posted by steaver
Age or position of accountability may make us feel all warm and cozy but it just simply is not biblical.
JV, you're reading "INTO" again - steaver says the concept is not biblical; IE: not clarified in scripture.
He does NOT say --"that a stillborn baby is categorically concigned to Hell?", or any such, as you "imply".
What he does state is, "To teach this as truth would be to claim super natural enlightenment from God.", which basically says we just don't know.
Big difference if you read what is written, rather than superimpose imaginings!!
From the OP:
For those who go to hell without Christ, is it because they were born in sin or only because they committed sin when they got older?
The below scripture says Christ came into the world to save those who are sinners. It does not say He came to save people because they were "born in sin".
I Tim. 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Is there a scripture that says Christ came to save people only because they were born in sin?
For those who go to hell without Christ, is it because they were born in sin or only because they committed sin when they got older?
The below scripture says Christ came into the world to save those who are sinners. It does not say He came to save people because they were "born in sin".
I Tim. 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Is there a scripture that says Christ came to save people only because they were born in sin?
I didn't read "into" anything. He was it was not biblical, and I asked him to clarify. I further cited scripture that implies support for it not being unbiblical.
I didn't imply, I asked a quesiton.
"Contention"! Oh my, I don't want to be contentious. :love2:
ALL mankind is cursed (Romans 5). This begins at conception, just as when the soul begins.
Should we preach that all babies go to hell? Of course not, why preach what you cannot prove? If my baby would die, I would trust God that He has covered him by the blood of Christ. I simply cannot categorically preach all babies go to heaven nor that all babies go to hell.
This scripture you reference is spiritual. So what makes you believe that Jesus has or has not knocked on every infants heart? What makes you believe that Jesus could not knock on an infants heart and speak to him?
Since we are debating an unknown here and some would like to speculate that there is an unknown age of accountability, why would it be so far fetched to believe that God, Whom with ALL things are possible, could not spiritually witness and speak to the spirits of even babies?
In fact, scripture may even support this view and it might not be an unknown afterall...
Luk 1:44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Here is a baby yet in the womb who has heard (remarkable) and here is the fantastic part, the baby has responded. I could now suggest that all, even babies, spiritually hear Jesus knock and can even reject or accept Him from the womb. We just don't know all the details but do know that nothing is impossible with God.
This sounds far more plausible and finds some support from scripture, whereas any "age of accountability" is totally void from scripture.
Do we have God in our own box? Can He not save without human wisdom or understanding, or even human preaching? Is He not fair and just?
I must believe that God is fair and just and that there is only one gospel and one way to be saved and that is by grace no matter what vehicle God chooses to apply His offer of grace to each one of His creatures. Does this then mean that one can be saved apart from accepting Jesus as Lord? Absolutely not. When one hears (however that may be) they are required to embrace Jesus or be damned.
I know the Calvinist would say that God being fair and just would be God sending every last one of us to hell. This is an acute lack of understanding of God's justice and grace. God never wanted anyone to end up in hell and has offered salvation to ALL. WE may not understand all the details, but I have no doubt God has it all under control. Sending all to hell would not be fair and just. Adam was set up to fail and God made sure he and all of his offspring was set up to be saved. That is fair and just.
BTW, this in another topic, but I believe the only people who deserve hell are those who have rejected Jesus Christ, And nobody "deserves" to go to heaven. Sounds like a contradiction of thought, but I think the problem lies in the implications of the word "deserves".
:jesus:
It's because they committed the sin of rejecting Him.
It depends then on the ability to accept or reject.
Soory you are very wrong. Even honest Arminians would agree with me on this. Each and every human deserves condemnation. That is an extremely well-known biblical proposition. It would be fair of God to send each and every person to Hell.
It's because they were never born again as Jesus said we must be in John 3:7.
Romans 7
Spiritually dead people need to be born again, and I don't believe Scripture supports a person dying spiritually for the sole purpose of being conceived (nor possible). At any rate, dying is the ending of life, so there would have to be life at some point to end.
Eze 18
And you are responsible for your own sins, not anyone elses.
It's not about God punishing you or I. The problem isn't that you have sinned, sinning is a symptom from a virus, the problem is that you have cursed blood. Adam sinned and the curse entered into mankind via the blood. God did not desire condemnation for Adam or his offspring. So God immediately implemented His grace and mercy. Man can reject God's grace or embrace God's grace.
:jesus:
Sorry, I think I am right! :wavey:
Like I said, it is another topic. Start a thread on it if you have the time. If I get time I might start one. Be sure to post scripture in th OP that supports your position.
:jesus:
Romans 7
Very good! :thumbs: