Original Sin

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

EWF: IE....Heretical Pelagianism:

1. The sin of Adam affected no one but himself.

HP: please quote from one person you consider as Pelagian that has ever said that the sin of Adam affected no one but himself. Don't get on the Internet and start given me quotes were Calvinist are talking about someone they disdain. Quote from the source or admit you don't know whereof you speak.

EW&F: 2. Those born since Adam have been born into the same condition Adam was in before his fall, that is , into a position of neutrality so far as sin is concerned.

HP: Almost the same thing applies as did to your first question. Quote from one self avowed Pelagian or again admit you're just making things up or reading into their beliefs whatever you so desire. Show us the quotes not just the comments from their detractors.

EWF: 3. Today human beings are able to live free from sin, if they want to.

HP: Maybe you are referring to Paul's writings here although I didn't know he was ever called a Pelagian. "Being made free from sin.."

Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

That certainly sounds like living above sin to me if one is willing to allow God to work in and through them.

EW&F: Again it is pure heresy because it limits the nature and scope of sin & because it leads to a denial of the necessity of God's unmerited grace in salvation. Moreover, even when the gospel is preached to a fallen sinner (according to this view) , what ultimately determines whether he or she will be saved is not the supernatural working of God through the Holy Spirit but rather the persons will, which either receives or rejects the Savior. This gives human beings glory that ought to go to God.

HP: What's heresy? From what I see the only thing that that is heretical is a figment of either your imagination or the imagination of someone that is read, and not any Pelagian himself. Show us the quotes, or in DHK's words, you've just proved yourself a liar......... or was that you've proved yourself a liar already just by suggesting that someone who called himself a Pelagian believed what you 'suggested' that they believed, when in fact you have not quoted one solitary Pelagian.

Sorry EW&F, but I feel compelled to play by DHK's rules of engagement for a while.:saint: Please do NOT take any personal offense. :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

HP--Sorry EW&F, but I feel compelled to play by DHK's rules of engagement for a while. Please do NOT take any personal offense.

I'm sorry, but I wont drag another person through the mud in order to make a point....these are not MY "rules of engagement" I will however point out to someone I feel is in error, his or her mistake but I wont put them up on a stage & throw rocks....thats not accomplishing anything. It is enough that I have isolated & highlighted Pelagus mistakes & told you why they are so. Please do not drag me into you personal arguments with another board member.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

EW&F, first, the manner in which we treat each other on this board affects us all, and that includes the manner in which the moderator of the board treats others as well. It needs to be brought to our attention from time to time. Sometimes we need to illustrate.

Secondly, I do not believe you can produce one solitary piece of evidence for at least the first two points you made, and don't believe for a minute you understand how any Pelagian feels about the last point you made.

With that said, document the words of one solitary avowed Pelagian to support your comments as to the beliefs of Pelagians,.... Or simply admit all you are doing is regurgitating the remarks of their retractors at best.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EW&F, first, the manner in which we treat each other on this board affects us all, and that includes the manner in which the moderator of the board treats others as well. It needs to be brought to our attention from time to time. Sometimes we need to illustrate.

Secondly, I do not believe you can produce one solitary piece of evidence for at least the first two points you made, and don't believe for a minute you understand how any Pelagian feels about the last point you made.

With that said, document the words of one solitary avowed Pelagian to support your comments as to the beliefs of Pelagians,.... Or simply admit all you are doing is regurgitating the remarks of their retractors at best.

It is obvious that you are a cheer leader for those folks (of which I will not name....because I do not feel need to. You can easily go into the archives and see a myriad of commentary as proof.

But if you insist, prove to me that my commentary is wrong & I might even respect you.....to date I havent seen any need to.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Posts the quotes by Pelagians and I will be happy to oblige.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

EW&F, I have been around awhile and have read thousands of posts. I have never heard one solitary person present their arguments or beliefs as you say Pelagians do..... so quote some for us if you can. :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Posts the quotes by Pelagians and I will be happy to oblige.:thumbs:

I told you NO.... I wont do that. It is enough that we on the board have had dialog (in the past) over those issues. Now you are requesting that I rehash them....again the answer is no & that is final. Debate each of the points if you wish but leave names & personalities out of the discussion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The truth is, it becomes obvious that you make up your own beliefs as to what Pelagian's might believe, putting up your own ducks to shoot at. Easy pickens, isn't it?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I have been called a Pelagianism some on this board. I have posted thousands of posts. Use me as your resident Pelagian if that float your boat. If you need a quote to use, just ask me a direct question personally, and whalla! You got something to shoot at. :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have been called a Pelagianism some on this board. I have posted thousands of posts. Use me as your resident Pelagian if that float your boat. If you need a quote to use, just ask me a direct question personally, and whalla! You got something to shoot at. :thumbs:

OK, question ....are you a Pelagian?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I suppose that is a fair question to ask, but I have not found as such on my drivers license that I am. I have never attended a church that had Pelagian's name above the door. I certainly do not believe in the first two statements you made concerning Pelagian's, but again I saw no quotes.

I have lived long enough to see firsthand how one's views are misused and abused by others, desiring not to understand another, but are quick to simply read the words of another's detractors, and if the detractor comes from their camp, their words are more often than not accepted as gospel. Few ever spend the time or have an open-minded enough to actually research for themselves the truth of another's beliefs. It is hard tedious work. One has to have honestly before God the truth as one's object, which is a rarity for so many. Most are only trying to find support or evidence that might be used against any and all that dare go against what they believe or what even might be considered as Orthodox. It is no wonder why some are maligned century after century often times not by anything necessarily stated or published by the source itself, but rather maligned by the words of another's detractor(s) alone.

I have read more than once the comment that Pelagius may well be one of the most misunderstood men in the Christian world. I would lean in that direction from what I have read.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I suppose that is a fair question to ask, but I have not found as such on my drivers license that I am. I have never attended a church that had Pelagian's name above the door. I certainly do not believe in the first two statements you made concerning Pelagian's, but again I saw no quotes.

I have lived long enough to see firsthand how one's views are misused and abused by others, desiring not to understand another, but are quick to simply read the words of another's detractors, and if the detractor comes from their camp, their words are more often than not accepted as gospel. Few ever spend the time or have an open-minded enough to actually research for themselves the truth of another's beliefs. It is hard tedious work. One has to have honestly before God the truth as one's object, which is a rarity for so many. Most are only trying to find support or evidence that might be used against any and all that dare go against what they believe or what even might be considered as Orthodox. It is no wonder why some are maligned century after century often times not by anything necessarily stated or published by the source itself, but rather maligned by the words of another's detractor(s) alone.

I have read more than once the comment that Pelagius may well be one of the most misunderstood men in the Christian world. I would lean in that direction from what I have read.

A yes or no answer would have been sufficient.

Do you believe in Gods authority in scripture....that its Gods inerrant word & therefore defines Gods truth?

If so , please explain this.....Romans 5:12

King James Version (KJV)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[DHK]

HP: please quote from one person you consider as Pelagian that has ever said that the sin of Adam affected no one but himself. Don't get on the Internet and start given me quotes were Calvinist are talking about someone they disdain. Quote from the source or admit you don't know whereof you speak.

Moriah believes this. All who deny that man has a sin nature believe the same. This is the first tenet of Pelagianism.

HP: Almost the same thing applies as did to your first question. Quote from one self avowed Pelagian or again admit you're just making things up or reading into their beliefs whatever you so desire. Show us the quotes not just the comments from their detractors.

HP: Maybe you are referring to Paul's writings here although I didn't know he was ever called a Pelagian. "Being made free from sin.."

Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

That certainly sounds like living above sin to me if one is willing to allow God to work in and through them.

HP: What's heresy? From what I see the only thing that that is heretical is a figment of either your imagination or the imagination of someone that is read, and not any Pelagian himself. Show us the quotes, or in DHK's words, you've just proved yourself a liar......... or was that you've proved yourself a liar already just by suggesting that someone who called himself a Pelagian believed what you 'suggested' that they believed, when in fact you have not quoted one solitary Pelagian.

Sorry EW&F, but I feel compelled to play by DHK's rules of engagement for a while.:saint: Please do NOT take any personal offense. :thumbs:

He quoted the three major tenets of Pelagianism.
I had already explained them. I am not a Calvinist.

Look here in this thread, and note how I explained this already. Pay attention!!

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1817660&postcount=77

Here are some authoritative sources on Pelagianism:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1817227&postcount=85

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: please quote from one person you consider as Pelagian that has ever said that the sin of Adam affected no one but himself. Don't get on the Internet and start given me quotes were Calvinist are talking about someone they disdain. Quote from the source or admit you don't know whereof you speak.

DHK: Moriah believes this. All who deny that man has a sin nature believe the same. This is the first tenet of Pelagianism.

HP: First you are flat out lying about myself because I do not believe in original sin yet that is not my position.

DHK, you are really something. You have the audacity to tell us how I believe, and how Moriah believes, without one soilitary quote from myself or him? Did you not clearly accuse me of lying and slandering you by my failure to quote your exact words? Have you no conscience?

Is this precisely not the way you judge others, and then you do the same thing yourself? Certainly the following verse should give us all a reason for self introspection.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

HP: Let's see how you do at reading comprehension EW&F. What passed upon all men, sin or death, and what is the Scriptural answer as to why found in the last part of the verse?

 

[DHK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: please quote from one person you consider as Pelagian that has ever said that the sin of Adam affected no one but himself. Don't get on the Internet and start given me quotes were Calvinist are talking about someone they disdain. Quote from the source or admit you don't know whereof you speak.

HP: First you are flat out lying about myself because I do not believe in original sin yet that is not my position.

You have explained your position before. If you did not believe in OS, then you would stop calling Augustine and Calvin heretics. You keep on attributing OS to Augustine and not the Bible, so what's up with that? Obviously you do not believe it as a Biblical doctrine.

I have heard your views many times before. Tell me if I am right. You believe that children are born innocent into the world. Your interpretation of Psalms 51:5 and 58:3 are vastly different than mine. You don't believe they become sinners until they reach an age of understanding and can actually commit sin. You might say that they have a propensity to sin, but not actually that they have a depraved nature from birth onward. How am I doing?

DHK, you are really something. You have the audacity to tell us how I believe, and how Moriah believes, without one soilitary quote from myself or him? Did you not clearly accuse me of lying and slandering you by my failure to quote your exact words? Have you no conscience?

And how long have I been debating you?
Tell me where I am wrong.

But most importantly of all, I explained both my position and defined adequately Pelagianism for you in both of those links.
Now it is time for you to admit to the rest of us that you are a Pelagian, according to the definitions given, right? And if not, why not?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: How am I doing?

HP: Waiting to see your quote of Moriah or myself.
:sleeping_2:

 

[The Biblicist]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

HP: Let's see how you do at reading comprehension EW&F. What passed upon all men, sin or death, and what is the Scriptural answer as to why found in the last part of the verse?

It is "death" that is passed upon all men because "death" is the wages of sin and the text explicity states "and death by sin."

The sin in question is that of Adam and therefore the resultant death is SPIRITUAL death as that was the immeidate aspect of death that resulted in adam's sin and the only form of death possible "in the day" he ate as he did not physical die "in the day" he ate.

Moreover, the wages of sin is death in its comprehensive form (1) Spiritual that leads to (2) Physical and concludes in (3) Eternal death.

In order to deny this interpretation:

1. You must prove that Adam's particular sin is not the subject of the first part of the verse in order to deny that spiritual death is not the consequence of that sin as spiritual death was the immediate effect "in the day" he ate as he did not physically die "in the day" he ate.

2. You must prove that the phrase "the wages of sin is death" excludes physical death and therefore deny that physical death is consequential to spiritual death.

3. You msut attribute physical death to something other than "corruption" due to sin - 1 Cor. 15:53-58

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If you did not believe in OS, then you would stop calling Augustine and Calvin heretics.

HP: Yet another blatant lie. I have never called anyone on this list or referred to anyone else as a heretic. If you think I have produced a quote or you owe the list an apology.

 

[DHK]

HP: Waiting to see your quote of Moriah or myself.

Here is your evidence:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1814313&postcount=5

One of the most important issues noted, was the truth of Augustine as the father of the doctrine of original sin, i.e., guilt being imputed to all on the account of Adam's sin. No such notion was held by the early church prior to Augustine, and no such notion is taught in Scripture.