Orlando shooting

[Judith]

I am hearing some say that the shooting was God ordained. Some are claiming this was God's judgment on homosexuals.
I know that some hold that God's Sovereignty is absolute to the point that everything that happens comes from Him.
My question is what is your thoughts on the shooting? Was it of God or not?

 

[InTheLight]

Should have posted this in the Cal/Armin forum.

 

[Darrell C]

I am hearing some say that the shooting was God ordained. Some are claiming this was God's judgment on homosexuals.
I know that some hold that God's Sovereignty is absolute to the point that everything that happens comes from Him.
My question is what is your thoughts on the shooting? Was it of God or not?

Scripture teaches a generally simple principle that God does not exact payment for sin immediately, but shows grace and mercy to all sinners.

My own view is that this a consequence of sin from beginning to end. Involved are two primary sins which collided on that fateful night: homosexuality, and Islam.

Probably not all who were killed were homosexual, at least we could probably allow for the possibility they were not, but were with friends that were. So this would complicate a view that God had decided to exact payment for sin in the physical, unless we first established only homosexuals died. Secondly, while God has often, in Scripture, used foreign countries as a means of punishment, we would not echo the Muslim's belief that killing homosexuals is God's will.

So no, it was not of God, but a result of sin. Everyone involved could be examined and the end result would be a conclusion that these murders have as their cause the sin of the individuals involved. Had the shooter understood Islam is a false religion, he would not have bought into a view that accepts murder as acceptable for a follower of God. Had those people not been in the bar that night, they would not have died in this manner.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Once again I point out the obvious, God's Sovereignty means God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. God allowed the atomic bomb to kill women and children and old folks, none of which were involved in war. God allowed the Twin Towers to be brought down, again killing thousands. Not to many years ago an earthquake generated Tsunami killed over 200,000. The Potter has the right to preserve or mush the clay.

People that hold a differing view of God's Sovereignty may one day come to their senses.

 

[Judith]

I found an interesting quote from John MacArthur;
No doctrine is more despised by the natural mind than the truth that God is absolutely sovereign. Human pride loathes the suggestion that God orders everything, controls everything, rules over everything. The carnal mind, burning with enmity against God, abhors the biblical teaching that nothing comes to pass except according to His eternal decrees

 

[Iconoclast]

I am hearing some say that the shooting was God ordained. Some are claiming this was God's judgment on homosexuals.
I know that some hold that God's Sovereignty is absolute to the point that everything that happens comes from Him.
My question is what is your thoughts on the shooting? Was it of God or not?

Proverbs 29 :1 comes into play.....God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass......even the evil acts of the wicked are used by God to accomplish His purposes.

 

[Van]

It's a long way from God using some evil plans for His purpose, and God causes every evil for His purpose, He is not the author of sin. Stand by for cognitive dissonance.

The only viable view that is rational biblical and compelling is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[Darrell C]

The OP is pretty simple. If one believes God's Sovereignty means that God ordained the events and orchestrated them, just say so and get it over with.


God bless.

 

[Judith]

Proverbs 29 :1 comes into play.....God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass......even the evil acts of the wicked are used by God to accomplish His purposes.

I don't think that passage is in Proverbs 29:1

 

[TCassidy]

God has two types of will. His decretive will, where he brings into being and brings to pass that which He decrees.

The second is His permissive will. He did not bring this vile act into being, nor did he cause it to come to pass. But he did allow it.

What we must now do is come to an understanding of why He allowed it to come to pass.

It could be to draw our hearts closer to those we, as Christians, have historically shown only our hatred, contempt, and self-righteousness.

Or perhaps it could be that He wants the hate mongers like Spamderson to be exposed for what they are. Ignorant bigots who don't have a clue about what the bible teaches.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

How did Christ love us? Unconditionally, and with a forgiving spirit. And that is exactly how we are to love one another.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't think that passage is in Proverbs 29:1

Here it is.....He that being often reproved harden the his neck,shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy....
It is mercy that God saves anyone....

 

[righteousdude2]

I am hearing some say that the shooting was God ordained. Some are claiming this was God's judgment on homosexuals.
I know that some hold that God's Sovereignty is absolute to the point that everything that happens comes from Him.
My question is what is your thoughts on the shooting? Was it of God or not?

I firmly believe we, believers as well as non- believers, live in a period of grace! Simply said, He has chosen to withhold the need to exact judgment until after this period of time has endedand the lost stand before Him at the White Throne of Judgment. This is why we are not seeing nations wiped out by natural disasters or overwhelmed by marauding armies and held in slavery.

The day for atonement is yet to come. And this is probably why non-believers have grown in numbers as well as their sin. They are getting bold in sin, fearing nothing in the form of supernatural, heavenly reprisal for their life choices.

It is a shame when believers hold to such thoughts that God has released a form of judgment upon people for their sin, especially when they should know He has established a period or time of grace, slow to anger, hoping the worst of the worst will still find their way back to Him.

Great question Judith.

 

[HankD]

I firmly believe we, believers as well as non- believers, live in a period of grace! Simply said, He has chosen to withhold the need to exact judgment until after this period of time has endedand the lost stand before Him at the White Throne of Judgment. This is why we are not seeing nations wiped out by natural disasters or overwhelmed by marauding armies and held in slavery.

The day for atonement is yet to come. And this is probably why non-believers have grown in numbers as well as their sin. They are getting bold in sin, fearing nothing in the form of supernatural, heavenly reprisal for their life choices.

It is a shame when believers hold to such thoughts that God has released a form of judgment upon people for their sin, especially when they should know He has established a period or time of grace, slow to anger, hoping the worst of the worst will still find their way back to Him.

Great question Judith.

RD2 putting establishment prophetic theology aside RD2 - is it possible that if it is not the end then it is the sunset of the day of grace?

Matthew 16
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

I include myself in this chastising statement.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

I include myself in this chastising statement.

Then you must be very very very old:

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

That wicked generation upon whom the end of the age violently came upon was foretold from ancient times:

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness. Dt 32

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

 

[tyndale1946]

Then you must be very very very old:

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

That wicked generation upon whom the end of the age violently came upon was foretold from ancient times:

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness. Dt 32

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

You know I just heard a sermon from an Elder Joe Holder on this very subject kyredneck. I won't twist your arm but if you want I will send you the link... A lot of good sermons on it from other preachers too!... Brother Glen

 

[HankD]

Then you must be very very very old:

I am indeed.

HankD

 

[Judith]

God has two types of will. His decretive will, where he brings into being and brings to pass that which He decrees.

The second is His permissive will. He did not bring this vile act into being, nor did he cause it to come to pass. But he did allow it.

What we must now do is come to an understanding of why He allowed it to come to pass.

It could be to draw our hearts closer to those we, as Christians, have historically shown only our hatred, contempt, and self-righteousness.

Or perhaps it could be that He wants the hate mongers like Spamderson to be exposed for what they are. Ignorant bigots who don't have a clue about what the bible teaches.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

How did Christ love us? Unconditionally, and with a forgiving spirit. And that is exactly how we are to love one another.

I do not believe that God has a permissive will. However if you have scripture stating such I will be glad to change my understanding.

 

[HankD]

I do not believe that God has a permissive will. However if you have scripture stating such I will be glad to change my understanding.

Satan knows he needs God's permission (exercise of His permissive will) to do anything.

Job 1
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

He got God's permission - you know the rest of the story.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

You know I just heard a sermon from an Elder Joe Holder on this very subject kyredneck. I won't twist your arm but if you want I will send you the link... A lot of good sermons on it from other preachers too!... Brother Glen

Send me the link Brother Glen.

 

[Zaac]

God has two types of will. His decretive will, where he brings into being and brings to pass that which He decrees.

The second is His permissive will. He did not bring this vile act into being, nor did he cause it to come to pass. But he did allow it.

What we must now do is come to an understanding of why He allowed it to come to pass.

It could be to draw our hearts closer to those we, as Christians, have historically shown only our hatred, contempt, and self-righteousness.

Or perhaps it could be that He wants the hate mongers like Spamderson to be exposed for what they are. Ignorant bigots who don't have a clue about what the bible teaches.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

How did Christ love us? Unconditionally, and with a forgiving spirit. And that is exactly how we are to love one another.

Well said TC.