Osama bin Laden's punishement

Daniel, let me see if I understand, this is how i'm taking what you have had to say. It seems like you agree that there are times such as these that we must go to war...(right so far?) But, the spirit in which we go about it is what can cause it to be done in a sinful nature. I may be misinterpreting your ideas, but if I'm right, then yes, I agree. I hate the fact that it's true but yes, our nation is in the position of having to take action. I just have to keep my own heart in check and make sure that I'm not delighting in the loss of more lives. The only way I have found I can overcome my fleshly desire from craving the misery of the people behind this is by begging God to replace those thoughts with something that would glorify him. No, that's not easy and I would be lying if I tried to pretend that I succeeded in doing this 100% of the time. Afterall, until we meet in heaven we are going to all continue to struggle with our flesh.

 

Kathy,

"some of you" points a finger at those who you are directing your post to. David being one of them. If David isn't one of them then all I can say if from MY perspective David was one of the people you were directing the post to. Obviously he thought that too or would have not responded in a manner as he did.

And that is all I am doing is pointing out what I see from my perspective.

Shalom!

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Matthew 5:43-45
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you that you may be sons of your father in heaven. He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

The words of Jesus put all of the rest of the Bible in perspective. As we pray for the families of victims, for our President and for our country, perhaps we should heed his words and pray for Osama Bin Lauden and any other terrorist that has the U.S. (or any other country) as a target.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
Kathy,

"some of you" points a finger at those who you are directing your post to. David being one of them. If David isn't one of them then all I can say if from MY perspective David was one of the people you were directing the post to. Obviously he thought that too or would have not responded in a manner as he did.

And that is all I am doing is pointing out what I see from my perspective.

Shalom!

Until Next Post, Adam<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok Adam...but you are wrong. You can think whatever you like, but the last time I checked this was a public forum for public discussion...I was not attacking anyone and I certainly DID NOT put words into anyone's mouth.

Having said that, I will avoid this thread further because I feel as any more words from me would cease to be edifying.

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

I will be praying for you and everyone else here tonight Kathy. I think it is good for all of us to avoid discussion on this topic at all. None of these discussions have been edifying or brought glory to God and quite frankly are a bad witness to those visiting this site.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

I have said it before, the "pacifist" position comes out of a misunderstanding of Scripture, which is a direct result of not comparing Scripture with Scripture, and taking it all in context.

I have repeatedly mentioned reading Romans 13:1-7, and Gen. 9:6. Have any of you actually done that? I have yet to see Adam or anyone else on that side of the debate look it up and really think about it for themselves.

On a personal level, Adam is right, we
are taught to live peacefully with men, and to forgive and love our enemies.

On a national level, we are to support our goverment, which was instituted by God to be a terror or a deterant to evil. Government was also given the right to bear the sword and to take the life of those who shed innocent blood.

Application - As an individual, I hold no hatred in my heart for Osama - I don't even know the man, I've never met him. I don't like what he's done, I do hate that! However, because I am an American citizen, with the rest of America, I cry out for justice to be done, and I support my Government in declaring war upon this man and what he stands for- terrorism. If the United States does not seek to rid the world of these men who would do this to innocent people, we have lost our freedom, and that is a very sad day indeed!

 

What I would really like to see happen, is that Osama's millions be found, and the US confiscate it to pay for re-building NYC.

 

Genesis 9:6
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man"

Amen.

Osamo should and will pay the penalty for the error of his ways but that does not justify hating him. Rather we should pray to for him that the Holy Spirit will convict him into seeing how he did Satan's work and that he may know Jesus Christ as his savior, than by all means let him die. (And yes also let him die if he chooses to still deny Christ)

Romans 13
1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

And Amen.

Be subject to governmental authorities and allow them to execute the wrath upon who ever is responsible for this terror.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

I posted a quote here from the Sermon on the Mount.

It is interesting that no one seemed to take notice, but keep quoting and interpreting scripture as if Jesus didn't have anything to say about it.

I was always taught that what Jesus had to say put everything else in its proper perspective for interpretation (the Bible interpreting itself, etc.). When you quote scripture out of that context, it takes on a different meaning.

We frequently make a context error in interpreting Old Testament passages meant for national Israel as if they were also meant for the United States. And while our country has been a tremendous witness and testimony for Christ in this world, the covenant we now live under does not entitle us to claim for our nation the same status that Israel enjoyed in the OT. God's "chosen" in this age are Christians who are all over the world, not a "people" in the sense of having a national identity, but a people of God with a spiritual identity. (I Peter 2:9-10)

 

&lt; The words of Jesus put all of the rest of the Bible in perspective. &gt;

Then, regardless of what "the rest of the Bible" says, do you hate your parents or children or spouse because of His words in Luke 14:26?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
&lt; The words of Jesus put all of the rest of the Bible in perspective. &gt;

Then, regardless of what "the rest of the Bible" says, do you hate your parents or children or spouse because of His words in Luke 14:26?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. But then, Jesus is using a figure of speech here to illustrate a point, isn't he? It is about counting the cost of following him, not literally "hating" someone, especially a family member. The subject is following Jesus, which, as he is very strongly stating, must come first, even before family.

The context is very clearly stated in the next verse, where he uses the phrase, "carry his cross". Following Jesus must be a priority, even over family. That's his point.

Are you saying that it is O.K., in certain circumstances (which would be a subjective feeling of your own determination), to ignore what Jesus said about loving your enemies? I think Osama Bin Laden is an enemy of the spiritual kind that Jesus seems to be speaking of in this passage.

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: ellis ]

 

ellis,

Does Jesus violate His own teachings when He threw the "money changers" out of the temple, physically and violently (he trashed the place)?

Does Jesus violate His own teachings when He calls the Pharisees "brood of vipers, blind guides, hypocrites (several times), fools, and serpents?"

Jesus was perfect, right? So what's missing? Could it be that dealing with thoroughly wicked people (money changers) and sworn enemies (Pharisees) validates a different response? What are terrorists: thoroughly wicked sworn enemies?

Did you read the previous post regarding Romans 13:3-4: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." (NKJV)

 

ellis said, "I think Osama Bin Laden is an enemy of the spiritual kind that Jesus seems to be speaking of in this passage."

I agree that he is a spiritual enemy of God, but there's about 20,000 survivors of dead loved ones who will tell you he's a physical enemy also!

 

&lt; No. But then, Jesus is using a figure of speech here to illustrate a point, isn't he? &gt;

Likely enough. And is He not doing the same thing when he said to "love your enemies?" On at least 2 different occasions he drove the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip and threw over their tables. If anyone can do this and be 'loving' of the enemies [opponents], it will never be perceived as such.

I suppose Christians DO 'pick and choose' what we want scripture to say with the excuses of "context" or "metaphor" or "figurative." The "Sermon on the Mount," that significant portion of the gospels to which you refer, also quotes Jesus as saying to gouge out your eye if you lust or to cut off your hand if it causes you to sin. Just how literally do you take the S.O.T.M., and what is your general criteria for determining the meaning of scripture by having the words of Jesus trump any others? Finally, how do you view the *double payback* command of Revelation 18:6?

 

Jesus was perfect, was God's son, the Word made flesh, and his omnicience gave him the authority to do what he did because he knew the condition of the very hearts of those he was judging. He didn't violate anything he said, simply because his words were meant for those of us who do not have either his omnicience or his authority. His command to us is to love, not hate or punish, our enemies.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm angry. I'm outraged that someone would dare to attack my country, using our own passenger airliners with passengers on board, flying over New York and Washington D.C. My first reaction when I saw the first pictures on television of the burning twin towers was a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, and then I believe my blood boiled for a while.

But there appears to me to be more at stake here than just guaranteeing our safety. Even though I am angry and sickened by what has been done, I still must heed the words of Jesus. If I allow my anger and rage to prevent me from obeying a command of my Lord to love and pray for my enemies, then am I any better than the one who organized and conducted this attack?

I cannot love or pray for this man of my own self, this is something I must ask God to do for me. Betsie TenBoom once prayed for the Germans who were bombing her city as her sister listened in disbelief, but then asked God to listen to Betsie because she knew she could not pray that prayer on her own without God's help. It is at time like this, when we have feelings like this, that we discover just how weak we really are, and how much we really need God.

 

And you're still dealing on an interpersonal level. Romans 13:3-4 clearly says that the role of government is to act as "God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." I am not contradicting your call to pray for our enemies. That is always appropriate. But one of the God-ordained purposes of government is to protect the sovereignty of its people, to eliminate evil from within and from the outside.

Are you talking about "Corrie Ten Boom?"

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

I'm willing to let God do the punishment . What this country needs to do is to destroy the threat,not just that of this one man but of the intire network of Murderers world wide!

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: Jimmy ]

 

&gt;&gt;"All we are saying is give peace a chance"&gt;&gt;

We are not being asked to "turn the other cheek", but to lay down and die.


http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010915-470683.htm

HankD

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
The Bible also gives clear ethical teaching for how a governmentshould handle itself when attacked. The government is to defend, protect, subdue wrongdoers, stop evil, to recognize that they often are the hand of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before you get too happy with this line of (un)reasoning, you should remember that the United States, at the direct command of its president, dropped about 75 Tomahawk missiles inside Afghanistan. Many people, maybe even some on this board, believe that the ultimate motive for that attack was to cover a scandal involving the president's sexual indescretions. Before you start using the bible as justification for killing and attacking others, you should consider whether the bible gives them the same justification for killing and attacking us.

This whole line of reasoning that America is God's chosen instrument to deliver the world from evil is a bogus, gospel-denying exercise in self righteous justification. It works just as well when turned against us. Or do you suppose that it's God's will for Iraqi children to suffer and die because of the destructive power of American bombs, or that God decreed that American weapons should prevent the Sudanese from having aspirin?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If our nation calls me up in the Navy and tells me to fight, this is just. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not all wars are just wars. And believe it or not, justness is not determined by your personal preference. Nor is your moral responsibility relieved because your government commands you to do something. Suppose the Taliban directed one or more of those terrorists to help Bin Laden? According to your perverse illogic, he is justified and carried out God's will, and is probably in paradise at this moment.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Apples and oranges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given the way the "We Are God's Avenging Wrath" crowd around here thinks and reasons, it would be surprising indeed if you could even tell the difference.

"God loves it when the American Government kills Afghan children. God hates it when the Afghan government kills American children. They slay us from hate. We slay them from love." It's so ******.

And how likely are you to get called up by the Navy? My career is the Navy. I love the Navy. If we go to war, the things I build will be used to kill, and I hope they work flawlessly. If any of you keyboard war heroes or self proclaimed "real men" want to help kill our country's enemies just march yourself down to the local recruiter. But if you want to be a Christian then you should pray for peace and forgiveness.

Like Ellis said, the bible is only properly understood when put in the context of Jesus' words. And He said, blessed are the peacemakers.

Adam and Joy, make the effort to decide whether the Afghan government has the right to retaliate against America for the missile attack. Use your interpretation of Romans and the Afghani perspective. It's a good exercise in humility.


Daniel