OSAS and future sins?

[Yelsew]

Finally, please explain how 4-point calvinism explains all of this without violating the natural law that is intuitive in the hearts and minds of all humans that one must have a free will of choice to either believe or not to believe, sin or not to sin, inn order to achieve actual salvation at the time of death.

It is not a natural law, it is a condition of humankind that is learned from the earliest childhood. Just as slavery is a learned way to think, free will is also a learned way to think.

HOWEVER, the human mind is capable of free will thought and humanity therefore "demands" the right of choice which God freely gives in salvation. The only specification God places on mankind is faith in God and Jesus, God the Son.

If you do not have such a faith, then you do not receive from God the promised salvation.

If you do have such a faith you do not receive the warned about judgment.

If not judged, you are saved! If saved you are not judged! John 3:18 the words of God the Son.

Now, of course, your works are judged as if by fire, but you the person come through that judgment of "life" as if saved from the fire only to go on and either not be judged because of your faith condition, resulting in eternal life with Jesus, or to be judged because you lack faith, that results in being cast into the lake of fire, eternally separated from God and heaven.

If God had not leveled the playing field for humanity, some men could have earned their way to heaven by good works. But alas some men are not capable of doing many or very great works, and they would not be able to get to heaven if entry is based on good works. Likewise if sin, which is a form of works, was a factor, then those who sin the least would get to heaven and God would have had to establish a "cutoff point in both works and sin. Well God did establish a cutoff point for both. He established that works cannot earn you heaven and Sin cannot keep you from heaven. It is faith alone that is the Key to heaven. If you have faith in God, the kind that is obedient completely to God, which is what Abraham had, and if you have faith in Jesus Christ when you die from this natural life, you get saved. If you do not have such faith, you are judged and cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the Man of perdition, the False Prophet, all of Satan's demons, and everything that is evil.

Faith in God is an individual human choice. A choice that is influenced by spiritual work both for and against the individual human. Even so, it is the individual human who must accept or reject Jesus or do or not do the law. God did not create a herd of automotons that have no God given abilities or God given rights. If he had Jesus would not have had to die. We humans are created to be "god like" in our essence, therefore we are independent one from the other, interdependent on our society, and individual before the throne of God. That is, I cannot stand before the God's throne in your stead, nor you in mine. We must each stand for our selves, and account for what we did with what we were given. If, God forbid, one of us stands before the Judgment throne, it is because of the faith condition of our spirit, and nothing else. Likewise if neither of us stands before the Judgment throne, it is because or the faith condition of our individual spirit when we die from this natural life and nothing else.

It is the faith condition of our spirit that governs how we conduct our lives in the flesh. If we are truly believing in Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah, then we will behave in accordance with that belief and not continue in sin, but repent from sin thus leading a life of "holiness", a life that is fashioned after the life of Jesus. If our faith is weak or shallow, we will not be faithful to the Christ, we will continue sinning in the fashion we did before we came to believe in Jesus, and our faith will die as a result because it is not being nourished. Dead faith will not get you saved because dead faith is powerless. The spirit with dead faith is a dead spirit, self condemned as Jesus says.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Finally, please explain how 4-point calvinism explains all of this without violating the natural law that is intuitive in the hearts and minds of all humans that one must have a free will of choice to either believe or not to believe, sin or not to sin, inn order to achieve actual salvation at the time of death.

It is not a natural law, it is a condition of humankind that is learned from the earliest childhood. Just as slavery is a learned way to think, free will is also a learned way to think.</font>[/QUOTE]Is it not natural to intuitively know that a person is not guilty of an offense if that person was compelled to do it? Is an insane man considered guilty when he kills another in his insanity?

Do you, in your "total depravity" that it is wrong to steal?

That is the natural law,{/i] Yelsew, at least a very short course on what it is. Actually the concept of the natural law is much biggert then that, as explained by the greatest theologian that ever lived, St. Thomas Aquinas. And by the way, I do not consider myself anywhere an expert of this briliant mind - He goes way over my head in his disertations.

HOWEVER, the human mind is capable of free will thought and humanity therefore "demands" the right of choice which God freely gives in salvation. The only specification God places on mankind is faith in God and Jesus, God the Son.

I am not sure I follow you here. All I know is, I much prefer that my wife love me out of her own unfettered free will of choice, rather then it be commanded, as the hyper-Calvinists seem to think about the 'elect' who are "compelled" (in my analysis) to love God! That is why I see Calvinism as being against the natural law.

If you do not have such a faith, then you do not receive from God the promised salvation.

A faith freely withheld? Of a fate of non-faith from the womb, Yelsew?

If you do have such a faith you do not receive the warned about judgment.

I agree. The problem is, was this faith freely given, or was it forced from being "born that way" as in being of the "elect"?

I'm trying to see where you are going here, Yelsew - you probably reject some of these propositions, at least I hope so.)

If not judged, you are saved! If saved you are not judged! John 3:18 the words of God the Son.

I disagree. All will be judged, with some being condemned and others not!

Those who are not go to heaven!

Now, of course, your works are judged as if by fire, but you the person come through that judgment of "life" as if saved from the fire only to go on and either not be judged because of your faith condition, resulting in eternal life with Jesus, or to be judged because you lack faith, that results in being cast into the lake of fire, eternally separated from God and heaven.

I read "works" as being "diamonds, gold, silver, staw, stubble" and that all will be tested "as by fire." Some will even "suffer loss" yet are still saved.

When you are ready to discuss purgatory, this becomes an important part of scripture!

(1 Cor. 3:15)

If God had not leveled the playing field for humanity, some men could have earned their way to heaven by good works. But alas some men are not capable of doing many or very great works, and they would not be able to get to heaven if entry is based on good works.

Can you quote scripture that amplifies on that? What if the person is so weak he absolutely cannot avoid sin, just like the insane man cannot refrain from killing? Still guilty, sir?

Would not the condemnation of a soul be based upon the depth of assent to commit a sin deliberately, with free will of choice?

Likewise if sin, which is a form of works, was a factor, then those who sin the least would get to heaven and God would have had to establish a "cutoff point in both works and sin.

Hummmm, I am tempted to speak of mortal sins and venial sins, which John had a different term for in 1 John 5:16-17; sins that are "deadly" and sins that are "not deadly."

Well God did establish a cutoff point for both. He established that works cannot earn you heaven and Sin cannot keep you from heaven. It is faith alone that is the Key to heaven.

Oh shucks! I thought I just defined it! The "cut-off" being between sins that are deadly and sins that are not!

If you have faith in God, the kind that is obedient completely to God, which is what Abraham had, and if you have faith in Jesus Christ when you die from this natural life, you get saved.

I could not agree more! And I hope I remain that way until the day I die!

If you do not have such faith, you are judged and cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the Man of perdition, the False Prophet, all of Satan's demons, and everything that is evil.

Agreed, all determined by my free will of choice to either condone and practive evil or to abandon it and cling to God!

Faith in God is an individual human choice.

A calvinist would choke, saing that! (At least a lot of them I know...)

A choice that is influenced by spiritual work both for and against the individual human.

There is no doubt that God gives us the graces, almost like "boot straping" grace, that we would continue in His ways! Sometimes, that fails, for example:

"So the Lord said to Cain: 'Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master'."

If that is not an attempt of God to give the graces that would encourage Cain not to commit the deed he is contemplating, I don't know what it is! Yet Cain cast it aside and did the deed anyway!

(I stand indebted to a good frind of mine, an Assembly of God preacher, who put me onto that quote.)

Even so, it is the individual human who must accept or reject Jesus or do or not do the law. God did not create a herd of automotons that have no God given abilities or God given rights.

I agree! I agree! I agree!

If he had Jesus would not have had to die. We humans are created to be "god like" in our essence, therefore we are independent one from the other, interdependent on our society, and individual before the throne of God. That is, I cannot stand before the God's throne in your stead, nor you in mine. We must each stand for our selves, and account for what we did with what we were given. If, God forbid, one of us stands before the Judgment throne, it is because of the faith condition of our spirit, and nothing else. Likewise if neither of us stands before the Judgment throne, it is because or the faith condition of our individual spirit when we die from this natural life and nothing else.

It is the faith condition of our spirit that governs how we conduct our lives in the flesh. If we are truly believing in Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah, then we will behave in accordance with that belief and not continue in sin, but repent from sin thus leading a life of "holiness", a life that is fashioned after the life of Jesus. If our faith is weak or shallow, we will not be faithful to the Christ, we will continue sinning in the fashion we did before we came to believe in Jesus, and our faith will die as a result because it is not being nourished. Dead faith will not get you saved because dead faith is powerless. The spirit with dead faith is a dead spirit, self condemned as Jesus says.

OK, I "think" I agree with you here, noting that you certainly are not the Calvinist I am used to! (If you are a Calvinist at all!)

God bless,

PAX

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your
children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings,
but YOU WERE UNWILLING!

Matt 23:37

 

[Singer]

If not judged, you are saved! If saved you are not judged! John 3:18 the
words of God the Son.(Yelsew)


I disagree. All will be judged, with some being condemned and others not!

Those who are not go to heaven! (Putnam)

What condemns us, Putnam?
St. John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the
only begotten Son of God"

And that means to beleive that Jesus rose from the dead, not "believe in the Holy
Catholic Church.

Some people just have to complicate the simple Gospel.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Singer:
If not judged, you are saved! If saved you are not judged! John 3:18 the
words of God the Son.(Yelsew)


I disagree. All will be judged, with some being condemned and others not!

Those who are not go to heaven! (Putnam)

What condemns us, Putnam?
St. John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the
only begotten Son of God"

And that means to beleive that Jesus rose from the dead, not "believe in the Holy
Catholic Church.

No, not at all, Yelsew, it means to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that you follow his edicts, including being obedient to the very church he founded!

See how simple that was?

Some people just have to complicate the simple Gospel.

Yep, I noticed that too! Heehee!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Singer]

No, not at all, Yelsew, it means to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that you follow his edicts,
including being obedient to the very church he founded!

Putnam, let's do a study of what believing means, and for
starters let's not start adding to the Word of God as you have done
above. If our obligation was to believe additional guidelines, wouldn't
there be a scripture to suggest that ? . I can find other churches that
attempt to support their own doctrines and teachings by adding to the
Word of God as you have just done. I left one that did just that and
it's not in my better judgement to go out and join another one as
you suggest. There are even a few whom I know personally that have
chosen to stay in that wrongful institution and help enlighten those who
are still under bondage to exclusivism. You might like to consider such
a position yourself; now that you've pursued Christians like Paul did, you'd
also make a good witness FOR Jesus Christ with the same vigor
that your promulgate Catholicism.

For starters, look over these verses about belief and tell me which one
points to the Catholic Church: (And don't use the finger in the nose is a Kleenex approach)

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will
be condemned.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 16 In context: Mark 16:15-17)

John 3:15
that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[ 3:15 Or believes may
have eternal life in him]
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:14-16)

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ 3:16 Or his only
begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:15-17)

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands
condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and
only Son.[ 3:18 Or God's only begotten Son]
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:17-19)

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not
see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[ 3:36 Some interpreters end the
quotation after verse 30.]
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:35-37)

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
(Whole Chapter: John 5 In context: John 5:23-25)

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go
hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
(Whole Chapter: John 6 In context: John 6:34-36)

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall
have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
(Whole Chapter: John 6 In context: John 6:39-41)

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
(Whole Chapter: John 6 In context: John 6:46-48)

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as[ 7:38 Or / If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me. /
And let him drink, 38 who believes in me. / As] the Scripture has said, streams of
living water will flow from within him."
(Whole Chapter: John 7 In context: John 7:37-39)

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will
live, even though he dies;
(Whole Chapter: John 11 In context: John 11:24-26)

John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
(Whole Chapter: John 11 In context: John 11:25-27)

John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only,
but in the one who sent me.
(Whole Chapter: John 12 In context: John 12:43-45)

John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should
stay in darkness.
(Whole Chapter: John 12 In context: John 12:45-47)

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives
forgiveness of sins through his name."
(Whole Chapter: Acts 10 In context: Acts 10:42-44)

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be
justified from by the law of Moses.
(Whole Chapter: Acts 13 In context: Acts 13:38-40)

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation
of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
(Whole Chapter: Romans 1 In context: Romans 1:15-17)

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who
believes.
(Whole Chapter: Romans 10 In context: Romans 10:3-5)

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who
loves the father loves his child as well.
(Whole Chapter: 1 John 5 In context: 1 John 5:1-2)

1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of
God.
(Whole Chapter: 1 John 5 In context: 1 John 5:4-6)

1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone
who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not
believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
(Whole Chapter: 1 John 5 In context: 1 John 5:9-11)


Singer

*** Thousands were saved before Catholicism was invented.

 

[WPutnam]

Singer replied, where I last said to Yelsew:

No, not at all, Yelsew, it means to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that you follow his edicts, including being obedient to the very church he founded!

Putnam, let's do a study of what believing means, and for
starters let's not start adding to the Word of God as you have done
above. If our obligation was to believe additional guidelines, wouldn't
there be a scripture to suggest that ? . I can find other churches that
attempt to support their own doctrines and teachings by adding to the
Word of God as you have just done. I left one that did just that and
it's not in my better judgement to go out and join another one as
you suggest. There are even a few whom I know personally that have
chosen to stay in that wrongful institution and help enlighten those who
are still under bondage to exclusivism. You might like to consider such
a position yourself; now that you've pursued Christians like Paul did, you'd
also make a good witness FOR Jesus Christ with the same vigor
that your promulgate Catholicism.

For starters, look over these verses about belief and tell me which one
points to the Catholic Church: (And don't use the finger in the nose is a Kleenex approach)

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will
be condemned.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 16 In context: Mark 16:15-17)

OK, here we are with a statement, "Whoever believes…" that we can start off with, wondering to what extent the word "believes" is to be taken here. Can you find a statement in scripture which indicates that "even Satan and the demons in hell believe" (paraphrased). What does that mean? Are they saved too, after they are baptized? They are already condemned; salvation is impossible for them in their eternal punishment! Or could it simply mean, in their case, that "belief" here is nothing more then a simple academic belief that God exists without implying that they love and follow him? I could say "I believe you exist" without implying that I believe in everything you stand for, teach of believe in yourself? Therefore, a simple "belief" that goes no further then the acknowledgment that God exists is not a saving belief, is it?

Is there a higher quality of belief, Singer? That is what we must discern…

John 3:15
that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[ 3:15 Or believes may
have eternal life in him]
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:14-16)

I have seen reams of paper, attempting to denote a difference between "believes in him" compared to "believes on him." I personally don't think that makes a hill of beans, and we still must ponder what it means to "believe in him (that we) may have eternal life." A simple assenting belief that goes no further then what Satan and his minions believe about God?

We continue on…

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ 3:16 Or his only
begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:15-17)

We still have a hard time figuring out what it means to believe here, but I think what we must do is see the application of the word in the contest of the sentence. It is obviously something greater then a simple assenting belief as Satan and his minions have. They know God exists, (they believe God exists) but it certainly is not a belief that saves per the scripture we have seen so far, do you agree?
Up to this point, I am beginning to think that to "believe" in God that results in salvation goes just a bit further then a simple assenting belief, but must include something deeper. May I suggest it includes a belief that includes love? Many I also suggest that it includes obedience to God, and finally may I further suggest that it includes even a total submission to God and His divine will.

Satan and his minions cannot believe to that depth at all, simply because they can no longer, in their condemnation, be able to love God. In fact, I have heard it said that their agony, knowing full well who God is (something even we cannot do in our earthly bodies…….yet) are compelled to hate God even so! Talk about a lack of free will! And when you think about it, this is a hint of what the agony of hell is, knowing who God is to His entirety, yet being denied to love Him and be with Him!

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands
condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and
only Son.[ 3:18 Or God's only begotten Son]
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:17-19)

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not
see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[ 3:36 Some interpreters end the
quotation after verse 30.]
(Whole Chapter: John 3 In context: John 3:35-37)

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
(Whole Chapter: John 5 In context: John 5:23-25)

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go
hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
(Whole Chapter: John 6 In context: John 6:34-36)

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall
have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
(Whole Chapter: John 6 In context: John 6:39-41)

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
(Whole Chapter: John 6 In context: John 6:46-48)

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as[ 7:38 Or / If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me. /
And let him drink, 38 who believes in me. / As] the Scripture has said, streams of
living water will flow from within him."
(Whole Chapter: John 7 In context: John 7:37-39)

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will
live, even though he dies;
(Whole Chapter: John 11 In context: John 11:24-26)

John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
(Whole Chapter: John 11 In context: John 11:25-27)

All of these quotes, so far, do not go into the depth of the type of belief I am thinking of that brings salvation that we "never die." Somehow, we must determine if all of these quotes above include the love for God; an obedience to God in that we serve Him in all things He would have us to do, including observing all that He teaches and all that He establishes (church) here on earth.

John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only,
but in the one who sent me.
(Whole Chapter: John 12 In context: John 12:43-45)

This is getting a little closer, because it includes a belief in the God that sent Jesus, the Divine Son, but it still is not emphatic to indicate the degree or quality of this belief.

John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should
stay in darkness.
(Whole Chapter: John 12 In context: John 12:45-47)

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives
forgiveness of sins through his name."
(Whole Chapter: Acts 10 In context: Acts 10:42-44)

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be
justified from by the law of Moses.
(Whole Chapter: Acts 13 In context: Acts 13:38-40)

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation
of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
(Whole Chapter: Romans 1 In context: Romans 1:15-17)

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who
believes.
(Whole Chapter: Romans 10 In context: Romans 10:3-5)

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who
loves the father loves his child as well.
(Whole Chapter: 1 John 5 In context: 1 John 5:1-2)

1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of
God.
(Whole Chapter: 1 John 5 In context: 1 John 5:4-6)

1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone
who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not
believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
(Whole Chapter: 1 John 5 In context: 1 John 5:9-11)

This last quote is the best of all for determining the degree of our belief that we will be saved. What does it take to have a "testimony in his heart"? Certainly not an assenting belief that simply acknowledges Jesus! But there is a better quote that puts your finger on how deep we are to believe that we are to be saved.

So, what quality of belief must we have that would gain us eternal life?

I will simply suggest the following quotes:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heave, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
" (Matthew 7:21 Catholic NAB)

Question: Does the one who says "Lord, Lord" also believes, Singer? Is it possible that his belief is at least that of a simple assent, rather then a depth of belief that would have him do "the will of my Father in heaven."? To what extent must one do the will of the Father in heaven, Singer? Would you include the belief in the very church He established?

But the one quote from scripture that best describes the depth of "belief" that we must strive fore that will bring salvation per all of your scripture quotes above, Singer, is the following:

"'Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?' He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all y our soul and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment'…"
That is how one must believe if one is to be saved, Singer…

And if you believe to this depth, are you not also so inclined to obey all of His ordinances, commands, including a belief in the very church He established?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven;
whatsoever you declare loosed on earth, shall be loosed in
heaven.

Matthew, chapter 16 verse 19

 

[Briguy]

Hey all!, just wanted to respond to a verse. Read out of 3 Bibles, the verse is this:

Mt 24:13
The man who holds out to the end, however, is the one who
will see salvation. (NAB)

13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(KJV)

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "(16) But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "This (17) gospel of the kingdom (18) shall be preached in the whole (19) world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
(NASB) (included 2 reference verses)

This verse was used in this thread and has been used in others to show that OSAS is not true.
I can see why in a single reading people could get that conclusion. It is however not the case and is being taken out of context. We all agree that there are characteristics that Christians should show, right? Well, one such is brought up in this verse. Endurance, the ability to fight the good fight, is a primary characteristic that we should display. We are to keep fighting and enduring, even to the end. Now, taken from a different angle we see that enduring is the "proof" that we are saved. The world needs proof and the "enduring to the end" is that proof. To God? No, because He needs no proof. To man, yes, for we are creatures that need everything proved. That fact is evident by every thread on this board

Is that clear? God knows who will be saved beforehand so there is no enduring that makes a differene from His side of things. The enduring is the proof to the world of who we are in Christ and what Christ means to us. We know we sin, we know we fail and we know we are not perfect. God disciplines His children, that is scriptual.

Endurance then is a characteristic of a saved person, it is a "proof" to the world of being saved.

There, fire away and I will respond rather then going on and on (like Bill P. tends to do

In Christian love and concern,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

Briguy,

Clear as mud.

"God knows who will be saved beforehand so there is no enduring that makes a differene from His side of things."

Amen to that. Do you have a point in saying such things. Of course God knows who will end up in heaven. That does not mean that we know we will be there for sure unless we persevere till the end. No Catholic would disagree with what you have said and it does nothing to contradict the points that we make against your false dogma of OSAS.

" The enduring is the proof to the world of who we are in Christ and what Christ means to us."

Yes, and it is proof to us that God gives us the grace to endure. But endure we must. So are you saying that the endurance is optional? If we don't endure we are in anyway? Or are you saying it will happen in every instance of every Christian?

This verse quite clearly shows that some who are in Christ will endure and some will not:

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;

You don't disown what you don't have. He says we. Seems like he would be included in we. He doesn't say "unless you are not among the saved" "then you will endure so don't worry about it".

Blessings

 

[Me2]

Briguy,

the scriptures that you've mentioned here about holding out to "the end" are speaking of a specific trial of faith.

the "end" here is not pertaining to the finality of their Life. It is a conclusion to a "test" in the middle of a process of Growth.

these references of admonishment are being spoken to a spiritual child before their faith is tried concerning the nature of the spirit of Christ that is within them.

which is going to requires persecution and the believer having the ability to forgive their enemies voluntarily.

thus proving and displaying the true character of Christ through the believer as they "hold on to the truths" taught earlier to them by the holy Spirit.

this is not an easy thing for human beings who has lived the majority of their lives following characteristics of the spirit of carnal flesh, of an eye for an eye.

this is a major transition between the child and young man stage. where the very nature of Christ is proven by faith. it is also the same period where Jesus is further revealed to the believer that Jesus is Lord. the proof of faith as to the nature of Christ has elevated the child to the young man stage.

here the "end" of the trial is "Jesus is revealed as lord."

but hold on..this is not THE END for their sanctification.there is yet another level of faith..the father stage which requires still more trials of the believers faith.

yet another trial to "hold on" to the "end"......

but during all of these trials whether the believer succeds or fails. God never casts any aside. they will always be saved. their process of sanctification has simply becomed stalled due to lack of faith.

think on this...many called, few chosen. referrs to christians who remain at the child stage and proceed no further in their lives. those referred to as being chosen are believers who have completed their trials of faith and have acheived the young man and father stage.

the difference between the two. Jesus is "christ" to children. Jesus is "Lord" to young men and Fathers.

many in the christian churches today are spiritual children and will remain at this level..
but their still saved...OSAS

Me2

 

[Briguy]

Hey Thess.
How are things with you? I pray you are well.

You used a verse that I think needs to be read in context and from a better version, the KJV, in this case.

9: Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10: Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11: It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14: Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Remember this is Paul giving Timothy a pep talk. It is like a coach getting his team ready for a game. The word is deny and not disown. In context, when we deny God in a circumstance we lose God's blessing and protection. We are still His children but we are left to face the problem at hand without Him because we have "denied" that he can help. (Peter, your first pope denied Jesus 3 times) The next verse mentions "believe". Is that saving belief or the belief in God's actions to handle a situation? It is belief in God's actions. Read carefully you will see that God is faithful even when our belief is weak. He can't deny Himself for he is God and is all powerful. This part of 2 Tim. has Paul building up Timothy to trust in God when he goes through good and bad times, like he, Paul has done.

Thess. the verse does not support your thought and is why verses should be presented in clumps when possible.

To answer your question. If a person is saved he will endure to the end. This does not mean he won't sin, it means that he will be God's child to the end, even in his sin. I have a Christian friend that through a depression, hurt his wife, a couple months after she kicked him out of his house. He became more depressed and didn't think he was worthy of God any longer. After 2 to 3 years in prison he was able to once again praise and worship God. He is still in prison but doing well. He sinned horribly but endured, God was faithful when my friend was weak. Hope that example helps. More to come.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

"from a better version, the KJV, in this case."

Funny how we didn't have any good versions around until the goodly king and Martin Luther showed up. What would we have done without them. That was a Protestant version by the way.

I have heard and seen all the personal stories. I know of many who claimed to have Jesus and tanked. So it is good to hear that your buddy hung on (or is it returned as the prodigal's father would say).

"Read carefully you will see that God is faithful even when our belief is weak. He can't deny Himself for he is God and is all powerful. "


Amen to "he cannot deny himself". Exaclty and that is why he cannot allow those who wantanly and willfully sin (are unfaithful) without repentence after having accepted recieved (Heb 6 I think) to enter heaven. He is faithful to himself and his laws. If we are unfaithful and unrepented he requires justice by his word and by who he is. We of course sin, but if we sin willfully and wantonly we are unfaithful and justice will be rendered. It is not a clarification such that somehow he is saying "even though you are unfaithful you will still slide in because I am faithful to what you think I should do". Your OSAS criteria for Bible interprutation forces you in to such errant interprutations.

[ August 26, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[Briguy]

HI Thess. (I sure wish I knew your first name

)

Thess., your right that many claim Jesus but then just disappear from church, never to return. They know the truth about Jesus but are not Christians, not saved, not part of the elect. This goes even if they hung around a church or true believers for years. That is why scripture says that Jesus will say to some, "I NEVER knew you" You know the verse, it is used a lot. Jesus doesn't say I don't know you now, but I NEVER knew you. Jesus supports my position with his words. I will try to post actual verse, in context, later.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Matthew 7:

21": Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

"22": Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

"23": And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"24": Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

"25": And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

 

[thessalonian]

Brian,

No need to post the verse. I am quite familiar with it. But note he says "I NEVER KNEW YOU". Yet they think they knew him for they cast out demons in his name. Sorry, doesn't clear anything up from my perspective of your position. The question for me is not whether or not God knows who will and won't be saved but whether we can know that we will persevere and whether one can fall from grace. Seems like Adam and Eve right from the start answer that one.

One further point. There is a parable about a man who is forgiven all his dedts. Can't remember where it is exaclty. Matt 21 I think. Then a servant asks forgiveness of his and is refused by this man whom had a greater dedt forgiven by the master. The master finds out about it and treats him as if none of his dedt were forgiven. Seems to me that is consistent with "i never new you", i.e. 2 Tim "he will deny us".

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Matthew 7:

21": Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

"22": Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

"23": And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"24": Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

"25": And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

I like this verse to show that just as many of the johnny come lately arians and lombards and cathars and waldesians did not stand, neither will Protestantism which is not built on the Rock which is Christ through the Rock which is Peter. It's days are numbered. Catholicism however has prevailed for 2000 years. You see, so much of Biblical interprutation is based on our taught perspectives. That is what you guys won't acknowledge even though you contradict eachother but say scripture rules.

blessings

PS. First name is Gerald. Though I kinda like Thess on these boards. But if you prefer....

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Briguy:
They know the truth about Jesus but are not Christians, not saved, not part of the elect. This goes even if they hung around a church or true believers for years.

Hi Brian, sorry, but I can't help but asking the same old question again.

How does one know with certainty that one is saved then?

The OSAS position seems a lot like being assured that you are rich because you bought a lotto ticket.

Assured that is provided that in the end it's winning ticket.

 

[Yelsew]

Wputnam,

No, not at all, Yelsew, it means to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that you follow his edicts, including being obedient to the very church he founded!

Can one be obedient to the Church that Jesus established without being a member of and called Catholic and having his name on the rollbook of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Singer]

Hey, Yelsew, you deserve a bump to the top for that question ?

Pacman....remind me to answer your last post here.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Briguy:
They know the truth about Jesus but are not Christians, not saved, not part of the elect. This goes even if they hung around a church or true believers for years.

Hi Brian, sorry, but I can't help but asking the same old question again.

How does one know with certainty that one is saved then?

The OSAS position seems a lot like being assured that you are rich because you bought a lotto ticket.

Assured that is provided that in the end it's winning ticket.

</font>[/QUOTE]If you do not have faith in Jesus, then you won't believe his promises. If you don't believe his promises, there is no way for you to be assured of salvation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen!

For by grace are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH and not of yourselves it (SALVATION) is a gift of God, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast.

Salvation is a Gift of God that we receive through our faith in Jesus the Christ, and "faith - in - Jesus" is the substance of what we hope for, the evidence of that which we cannot see. We hope that God's word is true for ourselves, and that by believing in Jesus the Son of God, we shall have everlasting life. That is after all the Promise made by Jesus in His discourse with Nicodemus, John chapter 3. Whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life. And, He that believeth is not Judged, but whosever believeth not is condemned already through their lack of faith.

So, if you do not believe the promises of Jesus, you'd better confess Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah, and behave in accordance with that knowledge. If Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah-Christ, who are you to defy Him?

 

[Yelsew]

Briguy, There are many things where endurance is a factor. Faith in God (Jesus) is the one thing that MUST ENDURE to the end for one to NOT BE JUDGED, as those who are not judged, are not cast into the lake of fire, meaning that they have everlasting life.

It is NOT OUR FAITH condition that is Judged, but rather the LACK OF FAITH condition of those who do not believe who Jesus said are condemned before the end that are judged to be unfaithful and are cast into the lake of fire.

OSAS is only valid for those who endure to the end! Jesus promised, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", but not one of us reciprocated by vowing to Jesus that we would never leave Him. We are still the "master of our own destiny", and because that is so, we can forsake Jesus by losing faith in Him.

That is the reason for the warnings to endure to the end! It is our faith that must endure because our works merit us nothing. Works without faith are just as dead as faith without works.