OSAS and future sins?

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Wputnam, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> No, not at all, Yelsew, it means to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that you follow his edicts, including being obedient to the very church he founded!

Can one be obedient to the Church that Jesus established without being a member of and called Catholic and having his name on the rollbook of the Roman Catholic Church? </font>[/QUOTE]NO! (If you eliminate the "Roman Catholic" handle and just say "Catholic." or better yet, The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.)

Therefore, what is holding you back, Yelsew?

All you have to do is find that one Church that can trace her history back to Christ Himself.

There is only one Church that can do that...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


"Gloria in excelsis Deo"

(Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)

(The choir response.)

Et in terra pax homininus
bone voluntatis
Laudamus te
Benedicimus te
Adoramus te
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter
magnum gloriam tuum.
Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens
Domine Fili unigenite
Jesu Christe Domine Deus
Agnus Dei Filius Patris
Qui tollis peccata mundi
miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi,
suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus
Tu solus Altissimus
Jesu Christe.
Cum Sancto Spiritu
in gloria Dei Patris
Amen.

- The Ambrosian Gloria -


http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram

(Real monks chanting....)


Gregorian Chant - God's music!

 

[Yelsew]

OK! Tell me where in Scripture is says to "trace back to...? "

I am already a member of the Church that Jesus established, It has Jesus as the Head, and it is truly the one holy catholic apostolic church, but it is not the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Singer]

Works without faith are just as dead as faith without works.

If Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah-Christ, who are you to defy Him?

Heads up, Catholics.
Notice what Yelsew says about works without faith. Imagine all that liturgy,
prayers to Dead Saints, pilgrimages to Rome, daily treks to the church, confesssions
to other sinners, Monk Music, repetitous prayers and chants, payments to purgatory,
covenantal imaginations, child baptisms, assumptions of apostolic succession,
expectations of Mary's interventions and swelled heads over church affiliation.........
..............and then still refusing to claim the promises of Jesus that we can
know that we are saved !!

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the
Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may
believe on the name of the Son of God

We're not asked to believe anything more than "on the name of the Son of God".
(It is stated twice in just this one verse)
Doing so assures us of eternal life.....it's what brings peace of mind that '' passeth all
understanding.'' "Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

The peace of God will keep our hearts and minds; striving to justify oneself by belonging to what is hoped to be the church that Jesus established will only bring bondage and fear, dedication to a worldly system and judgement and no peace
of mind !

Sorry, but the truth hurts.

 

[Singer]

It is NOT OUR FAITH condition that is Judged, but rather the LACK OF FAITH condition of those who do not believe who Jesus said are condemned before
the end that are judged to be unfaithful and are cast into the lake of fire.

Where do you come up with all this good stuff, Yelsew....? Are you annointed
or something ?

Notice Yelsew said "of those who do not believe"...........

It's those who DO NOT BELIEVE the following who will be lost.

1. That Jesus rose from the dead Rom 10:9
2. That He was from God
3. That do not believe on "Him whom He has sent" St John 6:29
4. "In me" St John 11:25,26
5. That Jesus is the Son of God 1 John 5:5
6. That He who has the Son has life. 1John 5:11,12

***There is no warning about not believing in the Catholic Church
in God's Word

 

[Briguy]

Hey Ron!! Haven't "spoken" with you for a while. Has life settled back in for you these days?

You wrote: How does one know with certainty that one is saved then?

I could use the scripture about God's Spirit bearing witness to my Spirit that I am His child but I won't, well, I guess I did already

What I really wanted to do is give you the logical reason based on scripture as a whole, not just a verse here and there.

I know I am saved because when I placed my trust in Christ something happened to me. I was changed on the inside. My body looked the same but I was different, I was re-born. I was made New. I was a new creation in Christ, a new creature on this earth. Just as I can't be unborn naturally, I can't be unborn Spiritually. The concept of being born but then going back on that birth is just plain impossible. It defies all nature and logic. Once you are born, you are always born, you are a child forever of what gave birth to you. In this case God gave birth to me through His Son, and I can't go back to a state of not being born, just as I can't become un-human.

A second logical reason is that when I trusted Christ God grabed on to me. I did not grab on to God. If I had grabed God, it would be logical that I could sin and let go and not be saved anymore. However, that is not what happened. When I was saved God grabed me. I can sin and even sqirm some but can't even budge his grip. He is perfect and faithful 100% and will not let me go. That is logical from a perfect God

One more logical reason. God disciplines His children. The Bible is clear on that. In certain sinful situations God chastizes (sp?) His children. If we could sin ourself away from being His children, why would He chastise us? He would just throw us away. Remember now, you are saying that we can sin in a way that God tosses us out of His hand. Logically speaking, as a Dad I will never give up my children. They could get mad at me and say that I am not their dad but it wouldn't change things. I would BE their dad and consider myself their dad ALWAYS. I expect nothing less from my FATHER IN HEAVEN, for he is way more faithful then I.

How bout one more. On a different thread it was pointed out that when one is saved their is rejoicing in heaven. I then pointed out that if a person can be lost again, once found, that in heaven they are rejoicing over many that will in the end not be in heaven. How strange is that in the perfection of Heaven. No, logically, they rejoice because the person is saved forever and worthy of being rejoiced for. (Also, do they mourn in Heaven when a saved person falls away?)

There Ron, a logical OSAS perspective, taken from scripture as a whole. Fire away, I am ready!!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hey Ron!! Haven't "spoken" with you for a while. Has life settled back in for you these days?

Well, we've recovered from our loss, but when you have nine brothers and sisters and and 39 more children between them, life is never settled.

Something is always happening.

There Ron, a logical OSAS perspective, taken from scripture as a whole. Fire away, I am ready!!

Not so much firing away as trying2understand

how the theory fits into real life. We have all seen someone who supposedly had the faith saving experience and exhibited the new creation changes in attitude and behavior, only to later fall back into the same old sinful life style.

The typical explanation is that this guy was not really saved to begin with. We and he only thought that he was saved.

Without knowing who will and will not match this situation later in life, how do any us know with assurance that we are saved?

It's sort of like the assurance that you are rich because you bought a lottery ticket. Provided of course that the ticket is a winner.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Ron, wow 9 siblings and 39 children in the family!!!!!, Now that must make for an interesting Christmas. Whose house to you go to?

Anyway, the "guy" in question is still saved if he was saved and is not saved if he wasn't saved. (How was that for a Bill Clinton sounding answer).
The point is the assurance is within each of us. It is individual. As for me, I KNOW because of the reasons in my previous post, which btw, you did not challange any of my reasoning

In Christ,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

Briguy,

Is this sentence true:

"Anyway, the "guy" in question is still saved if he was saved and is not saved if he wasn't saved even though he thought he was assured of being saved."

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
OK! Tell me where in Scripture is says to "trace back to...? "

Why would scripture have to say anything about "tracing back," when the only church around is the one and only church Christ founded?

Today, my Church can trace her origins back to the time of Christ.

How far does your church go, Yelsew?

I am already a member of the Church that Jesus established, It has Jesus as the Head, and it is truly the one holy catholic apostolic church, but it is not the Roman Catholic Church.

A member of the "church at large" perhaps? Yes, we Catholics consider our non-Catholic brethren as "at large" members, in fact.

Isn't it time to cease the "at large" membership and become full fledged?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Singer:
Works without faith are just as dead as faith without works.

If Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah-Christ, who are you to defy Him?

Heads up, Catholics.
Notice what Yelsew says about works without faith. Imagine all that liturgy,
prayers to Dead Saints, pilgrimages to Rome, daily treks to the church, confesssions
to other sinners, Monk Music, repetitous prayers and chants, payments to purgatory,
covenantal imaginations, child baptisms, assumptions of apostolic succession,
expectations of Mary's interventions and swelled heads over church affiliation.........
..............and then still refusing to claim the promises of Jesus that we can
know that we are saved !!

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the
Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may
believe on the name of the Son of God

We're not asked to believe anything more than "on the name of the Son of God".
(It is stated twice in just this one verse)
Doing so assures us of eternal life.....it's what brings peace of mind that '' passeth all
understanding.'' "Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

The peace of God will keep our hearts and minds; striving to justify oneself by belonging to what is hoped to be the church that Jesus established will only bring bondage and fear, dedication to a worldly system and judgement and no peace
of mind !

Sorry, but the truth hurts.

Who are you addressing this message to?

If it is me, why? I see little connection between this message and what we have been discussing...

Bill+†+

 

[thessalonian]

Hey to do oneup on Ron but...

16 siblings and 44 grandchildren (my dad and mom )

"blessed the man who's quiver is full" Psalm 127

 

[Briguy]

Gerald, you tricky guy you. I was reading the question you posted and got hypnotized for a while

The statement you wrote is true. I am sure glad you said "thought" instead of "knew" or I may still be in a trance.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Yelsew]

Wputnam

How far does your church go, Yelsew?

Since the church in which I am a member in good standing Has its foundation in the Christ, and its head remains the Christ, It began when the Christ began, from before the foundation of the world.

Isn't it time to cease the "at large" membership and become full fledged?

Wow, that is the very question I was going to ask you. Do you suppose that by joining the Roman Catholic church I would have a better more secure place in Heaven? Do you suppose that by joining the Roman Catholic church that my life here on earth becomes a life more abundant? Do you suppose that by joining the Roman Catholic Church that eternal life could be more easily attainable?

If yes to any of those questions, you my friend are simply blowing smoke rings. There is nothing in the Roman Catholic church that brings eternal life or security, or abundance of life. I already have all of that, and my name is not on the roll book of any human organization of religion.

I am assured in my faith that by believing in Jesus, and enduring to the end (of this life), that I will not be judged but have everlasting life in Jesus, the Christ in whom I place my trust. I am assured that Life is more abundant so long as I retain my faith in Jesus regardless of the situation in which I may be found. I am assured through my faith that I will not be judged, but have passed from death unto life. The word of God assures me that is true. The Roman church provides no such assurance!

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Briguy:


Anyway, the "guy" in question is still saved if he was saved and is not saved if he wasn't saved. (How was that for a Bill Clinton sounding answer).
The point is the assurance is within each of us. It is individual. As for me, I KNOW because of the reasons in my previous post, which btw, you did not challange any of my reasoning

But didn't the "guy" also think that he knew he was saved, even though it would eventually appear that he was not?

You say you know for yourself, but why are you different than our "guy" who knew also?

The reason I did not respond to your reasoning is because it seems mute. In the real world we don't really know what the future will bring or what decisions we will make when the time comes.

That is why we must persevere to the end.

 

[Singer]

Who are you addressing this message to?

If it is me, why? I see little connection between this message and what we
have been discussing... (Putnam)

....."and then still refusing to claim the promises of Jesus that we can
know that we are saved !!" (Singer)

The title of this thread deals with OSAS, Bill and ''to know that we are saved"
is sure on topic. Go ahead and take a stab at answering it. Yelsew mentioned
''works without faith'' and all these works that I mentioned that take place in the
RCC can surely be done without any faith by the practitioner. Let me add that
the few Catholics I know that display a born again nature and reveal a love for
Jesus Christ would fit into any Protestant congregation and in fact do associate
in that sense. There are also many Protestant members that act ashamed to speak
the word "Jesus" in any given conversation.

But being born again and knowing of our salvation are sure the topic of
the day. There's no biblical evidence that there is such a thing as Catholic
Born Again and Protestant Born Again, so those Catholics that I know are
born again by the same renewing of the mind that happens to any Protestant
i.e. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that resides in those who confess and
believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and risen saviour. It doesn't happen
any other way, Bill.

Simon in Acts 8:18 wanted to buy the power to dispense the Holy Spirit
and was rebuked for such an act. That gift can only be given by the one
who possesses it in the first place...God. Jesus said "I will come unto you"....He is
the Holy Spirit. This bornagainism cannot take place by the administering of water,
belonging to a certain church, praying to Saints, spending time in the confessional
or with the influence of Mary. If you have the Holy Spirit, Bill, it's because you
confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead.......
just like anyone else.

God is even faithful enough to allow Catholics to receive that in spite of their
other inclusions and additions to the Gospel..!!!

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Gerald, you tricky guy you. I was reading the question you posted and got hypnotized for a while

The statement you wrote is true. I am sure glad you said "thought" instead of "knew" or I may still be in a trance.

In Christ,
Brian

Your getting sleeeeeepy.....

Now how do you know that you know rather than think that you know. Could you think that you know that you know? If you don't really know how do you find out that you don't know or does God leave you not knowing that you don't know?

I could persevere in this line of reasoning if you like.

 

[thessalonian]

Brian.

I beg your indulgence (I know the word is like fingernails on chalkboard for you guys ) but do you know that all of your scriptural interprutations are correct?

I think you will say no.

Is there a certain set of them that you know are correct with 100% assurance?

I am 75% certain you will have to say no to this also.

Are you certain that the verses that you interprut to mean that you are assured salvation are correct?

If so then why are you not certain that your interprutations of other verses are correct? What makes you certain that these interprutaions of the verses that say you are eternally certain are correct that is different from the verses that you are not sure about?


Which verses are you not sure of your interprutation?

Bottom line. If you are not certain of your scriptural interprutions that lead you to any view on the Bible, how are you certain that your interpruations that do lead you to eternal security are correct. And if there is a chance that your interprutations are incorrect it seems to me that that blows your assured salvation dogma. You are only assured salvation in as much as your Biblical exegesis is correct. Do you get my drift. Once again if your getting dizzy sit down for a few minutes and have a glass of water.


Sorry for all the questions.

Blessings

Thess

 

[neal4christ]

You are only assured salvation in as much as your Biblical exegesis is correct.

And you are in as much as someone else's biblical exegesis is correct.

Tell me, please, will God, who is presently the Father of all true believers, disown his children and joint-heirs with Christ at some point because of something they do? Does even a fallen, sinful, depraved human father do that?

All Glory and Honor to God my Father!
Neal

P.S. I probably won't see your answer, because I probably won't be back for a number of days. Just passing through and want to pose a couple of questions for you to think on as well.

 

[Briguy]

Thess. writes: ""Now how do you know that you know rather than think that you know. Could you think that you know that you know? If you don't really know how do you find out that you don't know or does God leave you not knowing that you don't know?""

Thess., that was a classic

You took my Clintonism to a new level.

I see where you and Ron are going and I know what you are trying to get me to say. We have all been careful how we are wording things so we don't get trapped. Anyway, Is every one of my interpretations correct? Ok, I will say No and then you will say something like, How can you know that what you believe the Bible says about OSAS is correct. The answer is easy. There are many many scriptures that I do know I am correct on because they are direct ideas. Now you can say that "others" still view them differently, even though they seem obvious. I say to you that we live in a world full of right and wrongs and if "others" differ in those obvious verses they are simply WRONG. The Bible clearly says that Heaven rejoices when a lost soul is found. This is not open for interpretation, it happens. If heaven rejoices then the lost soul must be found forever, right? Heaven would not get it wrong and rejoice for a soul that is found and then lost again. No objections so far, right? Heaven would not rejoice for the found soul just after the person dies because the person would be in Heaven and they would rejoice with the person , not for them. Heaven knows I am saved and I know I am because even when I faulter, even if I doubt God because of some tragety, He is faithful, His word says so.

Maybe the "guy" we are discussing does not exist. Maybe, just maybe, the person does not have the inner assurance no matter what his mouth says. I know because I know. He does not know but says he does. See the difference. Therefore he who endures to the end is the one who knows for sure. As I said way back enduring is a characteristic of a saved person.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

Neal4:

"Tell me, please, will God, who is presently the Father of all true believers, disown his children and joint-heirs with Christ at some point because of something they do? Does even a fallen, sinful, depraved human father do that?"

Well, he did in the OT. Check out Ez 18:24. Now I think this is carried over in to the new in Luke around verse 40 with the servant who when the master delays starts beating the servants and getting drunk. But then some will say he is still saved, just gets a beating even though it says "treated as an unbeliever".

Blessings