Singer replied, where I last said:
Singer, to claim an enhancement of our chances for salvation does not guarantee salvation!
Firstly, I disagree that your works even cause an enhancement and yes, of
course they don't guarantee salvation. Only ''having the Son'' guarantees that and you should be hasty to claim that salvation if you are sure you have the Son.
Define what "having the Son" is, Singer. Is it simple assent that you believe in Him, yet somehow do not quite go along with all He says, claims, and gives authority to, such as His church?
I last said:
No matter what I do, or how great a "saint" I am during my sojourn here
on earth, I can still, by my own free will of choice, abandon that faith and
return to a life of sin!
What happened to Jesus' promise to never let go of what the Father has
given him?
Nothing at all, Singer! God will live up to His promise and hang on tight, not let Satan or anyone else take us out of His hands! Did you notice that He is speaking of
external forces, Singer? Satan is an external force and so are his minions.
What about
you, Singer, an
internal force, if by succumbing to the temptations to sin, eventually turn away from God, and actually take yourself out of God's hands? Satan didn't do it; he only tempted you to do it. You did it yourself!
Perhaps I should have used myself in these scenario, not you, knowing that I am subject to this temptation as well…
I last said:
Looking for any vestige of agreement here, is this not about the
same thing I have already said, that only God knows the heart at our death?
Well I wasn't dwelling on who knows the heart, I was on another course in
saying that it isn't the things we know and do that gives us salvation; rather it
is simply belonging to Christ and that is obtained through "believing that He rose
from the dead" with the resultant "born again" status that guarantees us eternal life.
Faith is always the needed thing here, Singer, which brings us around again to the question: What is faith? By now, I think you certainly agree that it is not the simple acknowledgment that God exists (Like Satan and his minions do) but rather a depth of faith, which includes a deep love for God, as Jesus expressed and which I quoted in a previous message, that one most important commandment that we Love him with our whole heart, mind and strength (paraphrased.) Remember that, Singer? Is that not a good definition of how our faith must be that we are saved?
Go back and read that quote and see what I mean…
It is true that a Catholic can be condemned to hell, whereas a non-Catholic
Christian will go to heaven.
This brings up three questions .......
1. What is the benefit of being Catholic then ?
First of all, my statement above was intended to show the probable exception, not the norm. That is not to say that all Catholics will go to heaven or all non-Catholics go to hell. The benefits come from enjoying all of the attributes of the faith, attributes that are "tools"
spiritual tools if you will, that will increase our chances for resisting Satan, and persevering to the end that results in salvation. Saying that, I also think that a Protestant can do likewise, but the Protestant, in my humble opinion, deprives himself of those spiritual tools that makes his efforts more easy, available, and with the advantage we Catholics have (Catholics that practice their faith; unfortunately many do not.)
2. Will this Non-Catholic Christian enjoy the same heaven as the Catholic Christian?
I believe there is only one God, therefore there is only one heaven. When you are I are in heaven, we will not be wearing badges that say "Catholic" or "Baptist" or whatever on it.
3. Are you sure the Vatican would approve of your statement.
Having done this for many years, I am sure I am in step with what the Vatican would say. There are other Catholics that would correct me in a heart beat if I were off-base, I think.
David Palm is quoted :
"The gist of the whole discussion of "no salvation outside the Church," , it
seems to me, is that the Church has perennially preserved two parallel truths;
(1) Those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the necessity of
being visibly united to the Catholic Church may still be saved if they live
fully in light of the grace they have [a logical corrollary to this would be that
they are, in this case, in some kind of communion with the Catholic Church,
however imperfect] and (2) there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. "
Indeed! And you, brother Singer, are also one of those "catholics"! What David quotes here is almost exactly what is seen in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church on the subject. All Christians, in some manner, even while they may abhor the title, if they have an innocent heart in the Lord, are imperfect members of His Church, the Church we call "Catholic." (Capitalized)
But what bothers many of the brethren is, when we do get to heaven and if indeed, we all wore badges, me may find some that say "Hindu" or "Muslim" or another famous earthly religion system that nevertheless has them still brothers with Christ in that they obey the edicts of Christ and the essentials of the Ten Commandments! This is also in that same catechism, Singer! And while we are adamant in insisting that to come to Christ and His Church that is the true way for salvation, only God knows the heart of the individual, especially those who have never heard of Christ.
Brother Ed has offered:
Let's understand something. The Catholic FAITH is the Faith which Christ
God gave to the apostles to give to the whole earth, NOT the heresies of
Protestantism and its multitudinous varients.
And I would agree with Brother Ed here!
But what of the individual, 1,000 times removed from Luther, Calvin or some of the multitude of so called reformers over the years that founded their denomination, sect or cult who believes in his heart that he has the gospel of Christ? In sublime ignorance and in good faith?
Some anti-Catholic individuals are quick to point-out the "anathema's" promulgated by the many church councils that have convened to fight against these heresies, thinking that it applies to them, today. It does not if you believe in that faith system in your heart.
Yet you, Bill P. say that someone involved in the ''heresies of Protestantism" can be saved...?
Yep! I just did!
Carson Weber responded to the following question:
You asked, "How about if you reject the Catholic Church; are you still
saved?"
No, I would not be saved then because such a
rejection would be a grave sin. I would be
rejecting the family of God, which is essentially,what I am saved for. We are saved from sin and we are saved for inclusion into God's covenant family.
After having known the truth of the Catholic Church, her doctrines and her decrees, knowing that the Catholic Church comes from Christ, then to abandon that faith would have Carson committing the sin he is speaking of! But even here, if Carson were to do this, I cannot examine his heart to see if he is actually in a grave sin. I do not know of the stresses that may have caused him to abandon his faith (God forbid!)
Bill, where's your authority to include Protestants in salvation when your counterparts do not agree with you?
I invite my counterparts to come here and state if they agree or not with what I have said already!
(Continued in next message)