RaptureReady
New Member
Amen to that.
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OSAS and future sins?
- Thread starter BrianT
- Start date
Well, BPutnam, I just lost a post that took me an hour to type and
respond to yours, soooooooooo I'll just accept that the Holy Spirit
didn't want you to read it anyhow. (Actually He told me you are a
stubborn soul anyhow)
One verse that I remembered though was this....
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister,
and to give his life a ransom for many.
***Christ did not come to establish a church or appoint successors;
He came to minister and give his life.
respond to yours, soooooooooo I'll just accept that the Holy Spirit
didn't want you to read it anyhow. (Actually He told me you are a
stubborn soul anyhow)
One verse that I remembered though was this....
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister,
and to give his life a ransom for many.
***Christ did not come to establish a church or appoint successors;
He came to minister and give his life.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Bill,
On the contrary, I believe you are a genuine Christian who loves the Lord.
You said, 'But think you for your concern for my spiritual well being, sir. For you seem to have perceived that I am a sinner and fall short of the glory of God.'
I think we all fall short of His perfection each day. My desire is to truly love other people as I Corinthians 13 requests/requires of His people. Sometimes I am straight forward with my words in the posts, but it is merely to make a point. The intent is not to hurt another human being. Trying to follow Christ in the perfection of His ways is a daily and hourly responsibility. We try to please Him but this does not save us; we try to be like Him because He has already give to us eternal life with Him. We don't receive eternal life at the hour of our death, we have it right now. [John 3:16] This is what grace is all about.
On the contrary, I believe you are a genuine Christian who loves the Lord.
You said, 'But think you for your concern for my spiritual well being, sir. For you seem to have perceived that I am a sinner and fall short of the glory of God.'
I think we all fall short of His perfection each day. My desire is to truly love other people as I Corinthians 13 requests/requires of His people. Sometimes I am straight forward with my words in the posts, but it is merely to make a point. The intent is not to hurt another human being. Trying to follow Christ in the perfection of His ways is a daily and hourly responsibility. We try to please Him but this does not save us; we try to be like Him because He has already give to us eternal life with Him. We don't receive eternal life at the hour of our death, we have it right now. [John 3:16] This is what grace is all about.
I last said to Singer:
Holy men and women that are so evident in the history of the Church, Singer! But then that leads us into a discussion of the canonized saints that are so evident in church history, and my favorite is St. Bernadette of Lourdes.
I'm gong to let it go, Singer, as this is getting tiresome. I am sure you do not wish to receive long replies that have been generated by me in this thread any longer...
Please pray for me, a sinner...
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
Holy men and women that are so evident in the history of the Church, Singer! But then that leads us into a discussion of the canonized saints that are so evident in church history, and my favorite is St. Bernadette of Lourdes.
By the tone of this message, you are apparently content to speaking only of the evil men and women in the Church, never mind the overwhelming evidence of those who are not evil but are faithfully practicing Christians. Notice that I cleverly avoided the word, "holy," as you seem to want to go off on a tangent on that.
I'm gong to let it go, Singer, as this is getting tiresome. I am sure you do not wish to receive long replies that have been generated by me in this thread any longer...
Please pray for me, a sinner...
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
I am "stubborn" in the bosom of Holy Mother Church, Singer!Originally posted by Singer:
Well, BPutnam, I just lost a post that took me an hour to type and
respond to yours, soooooooooo I'll just accept that the Holy Spirit
didn't want you to read it anyhow. (Actually He told me you are a
stubborn soul anyhow)
Yet we see Christ doing that very thing in Matthew 16:18-19!!!!!!!!!
Suggestion: For long complicated messages, do a copy/paste of the message you are replying to into your word processor (I use Microsoft Word) and then choose HTML for your format, do you reply in your word processor, including adding the "EZCoding" as you may, save, and then do a copy/paste from your save when you go on-line once again to do your reply. That way, there is no way it can be lost. I learned this lession the hard way...
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
"Gloria in excelsis Deo"
(Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)
(The choir response.)
Et in terra pax homininus
bone voluntatis
Laudamus te
Benedicimus te
Adoramus te
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter
magnum gloriam tuum.
Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens
Domine Fili unigenite
Jesu Christe Domine Deus
Agnus Dei Filius Patris
Qui tollis peccata mundi
miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi,
suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus
Tu solus Altissimus
Jesu Christe.
Cum Sancto Spiritu
in gloria Dei Patris
Amen.
- The Ambrosian Gloria -
http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram
(Real monks chanting....)
Gregorian Chant - God's music!
Yes, thanks Ray for defusing the furor between the two of us and
thanks, BPutnam for being defused.
Concerning losing the post, Bill, I use the technique you describe
(Always) but this time my computer flashed a "You have performed
an illegal act" and locked up before I could even send the composed
message to my email box. (which is what I normally do). Anyhow I
suppose the post was full of negativism of some manner.
I have to look at the positive side of things for awhile as I'm in charge
of grouping and scheduling the musicians for our bi annual Gospel Jam
coming up soon and it's hard to muster up all this anti rhetoric while
I'm also needing to be in my " Love and Faith Mode" during the presentation.
It's like trying to carry on an arguement with the wife while trying to talk
to the preacher on the phone.
Sooooooooo, please understand if I seem to have mellowed to you
Servants of the King Via Catholicism.....I really havent !!
But thanks for the handshakes just the same and do me a favor......if you've
got some favorite jokes or short stories that could be used in a public christian
speaking setting, please include one in the humor section on Baptist Board or
PM it to me. I have to draw smiles you know.....that is my nature (to display the
Love of God via my unchurched position) to the masses of various denominations
at this event in October. I've already decided to ask my ole Catholic Buddy, the
Pastoral Assistant at the local BVM Assumption (doubtful doctrine here
..) Church
to do the opening prayers again. She's a blast and even a Protestant lady
remarked how good her generic prayer was at the last event. I even get her
onstage to sing when we both know she can't.
See how full of smiles I am.........the Holy Spirit does that too, Bill Putnam.
Please reserve me the right to have an Anti Moment once in awhile if
I see something that the Holy Spirit leads me to retort to.....okay ?
Singer
P.S. Please pray that I might sing well.....I might have to make a living at this
some day yet (Well at least with the Johnny Cash and Waylon songs)
thanks, BPutnam for being defused.
Concerning losing the post, Bill, I use the technique you describe
(Always) but this time my computer flashed a "You have performed
an illegal act" and locked up before I could even send the composed
message to my email box. (which is what I normally do). Anyhow I
suppose the post was full of negativism of some manner.
I have to look at the positive side of things for awhile as I'm in charge
of grouping and scheduling the musicians for our bi annual Gospel Jam
coming up soon and it's hard to muster up all this anti rhetoric while
I'm also needing to be in my " Love and Faith Mode" during the presentation.
It's like trying to carry on an arguement with the wife while trying to talk
to the preacher on the phone.
Sooooooooo, please understand if I seem to have mellowed to you
Servants of the King Via Catholicism.....I really havent !!
But thanks for the handshakes just the same and do me a favor......if you've
got some favorite jokes or short stories that could be used in a public christian
speaking setting, please include one in the humor section on Baptist Board or
PM it to me. I have to draw smiles you know.....that is my nature (to display the
Love of God via my unchurched position) to the masses of various denominations
at this event in October. I've already decided to ask my ole Catholic Buddy, the
Pastoral Assistant at the local BVM Assumption (doubtful doctrine here
..) Churchto do the opening prayers again. She's a blast and even a Protestant lady
remarked how good her generic prayer was at the last event. I even get her
onstage to sing when we both know she can't.
See how full of smiles I am.........the Holy Spirit does that too, Bill Putnam.
Please reserve me the right to have an Anti Moment once in awhile if
I see something that the Holy Spirit leads me to retort to.....okay ?
Singer
P.S. Please pray that I might sing well.....I might have to make a living at this
some day yet (Well at least with the Johnny Cash and Waylon songs)
Hi Thess. I think we need to back up a little rather then discuss those verses at this point.
We were discussing OSAS and assurance and we got side tracked more on to the assurance side of things. Lets get back to OSAS. I gave you 4 good solid reasons for OSAS. They are not direct scriptures but use scripture and logic, grade school logic at that. I would like you or Bill or any other non OSAS person to address those reasons. Thanks. I think that OSAS and assurance can be dealt with seperately. The assumption would be that we are talking about saved people and whether they can lose their salvation. Lets leave the point of whether we can know we are saved on the back burner for now.
In Christ,
Brian
We were discussing OSAS and assurance and we got side tracked more on to the assurance side of things. Lets get back to OSAS. I gave you 4 good solid reasons for OSAS. They are not direct scriptures but use scripture and logic, grade school logic at that. I would like you or Bill or any other non OSAS person to address those reasons. Thanks. I think that OSAS and assurance can be dealt with seperately. The assumption would be that we are talking about saved people and whether they can lose their salvation. Lets leave the point of whether we can know we are saved on the back burner for now.
In Christ,
Brian
thessalonian
New Member
Brian:
"I know I am saved because when I placed my trust in Christ something happened to me."
As long as this statement is present tense and you allow that a person can think that they know that they know we agree. We can have present tense moral assurance. Yet Paul says "let any man who thinks he stands, watch out lest he fall". We msut be on guard against temptation and falling in to grave sin that can rob us of the grace that we walk in. That is why sin is not mentioned in Romans 8:38 as something that cannot separate us from the love of God.
"A second logical reason is that when I trusted Christ God grabed on to me. "
There is a verse I cant find offhand that says that if we are tempted that when we are tempted God will give us a way out (grace). Thus for each and every sin we recieve the grace to avoid it. It is our own fault if we do not and quite clearly we can resist this grace, for we sin every day. When we sin as you pointed out below we are disciplined to reign us back. More grace but why would it be that we cannot resist this grace when we have resisted the grace to avoid sin. Answer quite clearly we can. it is a choice and when we choose to resist it it once again is our own fault because God gave us the grace. This slide can continue if we don't see the troubles that befall us from our sins as God's discipline (grace) and turn back. Eventually it will consume us and we will separate from him. But we can always accept the grace.
Paul says:
1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.
Now note a couple of verses up he says he stent timothy to strengthen their faith. They have faith but they can be tempted so that they fall and all is lost.
"One more logical reason. God disciplines His children."
Yes, God continues to reign us in as I explained above. Continues to draw us back to him if we will listen but grace can be resisted as i think is quite clear in my logic above. If we can sin we can also resist turning back. You said you would never give up on your children. Neither does God. We give up on him. He gives us all grace yet by every sin we prove that we can resist it. But will there ever be a point with your child that you would say "you cannot come to my house anymore until you clean up your life". Would there ever come a point where they would say "I can't stand his boring clean life". I will never go home again.. Pray that this trouble would never come to your family. But dont be nieve.
"On a different thread it was pointed out that when one is saved their is rejoicing in heaven."
Dont we cheer when our kids sports team pull ahead in a game? Are they guarnteed a win at this point? The angels in heaven rejoice over one repentent sinner because they know that sinner is now in grace and has a chance against this wicked world. A good chance. They also know that there will be less future sin and suffering in the world because that person has turned from sin. If nothing else for others that person influences. Yet they do not see the end for that person.. Further, your logic is flawed that they would not rejoice. For if the sinner does fall again in to grace sin, it is their fault. The angels know that. Tell me. If you get to heaven and a child or a friend does not make it. Will you be sad. It is hard to image how we would not be. Yet we will not be for we know that "every tear will be wiped away" . This will only happen because we will understand far beyond what we understand today. We will truly understand how the love of God allows that soul to make it's choices. I know from where I am sitting now if one of my kids didn't make it I would be eternally crying. If my understanding today is what I will have in heaven then God has to guarantee there salvation as well as mine for me to be eternally happy. Do you believe in OSASAMFST - Once saved always saved and my family saved to. Yet somehow in heaven we will understand in such a way that we will not have eternal sorrow over it. I can't today image how. But know that we will. So in answer to your question, the angels still rejoice. And if it doesn't work out they stil have the understanding such that it prevents their sorrow.
That is far too quick for your 4 points. If I had more time I have alot more scripture and logic to throw back. Perhaps later.
Blessings
thessalonian
New Member
Brian,
One more thing. I don't feel your logic is bad logic. It is just that our frame of reference is different. I understand where you care coming from on yours. Yours is the Bible alone. Mine is the Church (whic is not exclusive of the Bible). But God gave us a Bible through the Church. Not the other way around. When you try to extract churches from the Bible you get 30,000 of them and everyone disagreeing on what they should teach. Thus another Protestant will have a different frame of reference from which to interprut the Bible.
One more thing. I don't feel your logic is bad logic. It is just that our frame of reference is different. I understand where you care coming from on yours. Yours is the Bible alone. Mine is the Church (whic is not exclusive of the Bible). But God gave us a Bible through the Church. Not the other way around. When you try to extract churches from the Bible you get 30,000 of them and everyone disagreeing on what they should teach. Thus another Protestant will have a different frame of reference from which to interprut the Bible.
We as finite humans are bound to be in one place at any one given momenet. God is not limited by time and space,and neither is His foirgiveness. Jesus died for all my sins in the past, all my current sins,a nd all my fiture sins. When Jesus died how many of your sins were in the furture? All of them if He does not forgive furture sins, we're all in trouble, but no, our sins were taken care of on the cross(furture sisn since we were not alive then).
thessalonian
New Member
Doesnt' Work Donna:
1 John 2:4
The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
By your logic we do not need to repent in the first place. No, the grace from the cross has to be applied to this sin. This cannot happen without our will, thus we repent.
1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Jesus is alive and is currently our advocate. Therefore we must confess our sin:
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I have no problem with past and present sins being forgiven if we have repented. But the idea of a future sin already being forgiven is ridiculous. Yes, Jesus is ready to forgive and his death on the cross earned our grace such that future sins may be forgiven and he will give us the grace to ask. But they are not currently.
Indeed!Originally posted by Singer:
Yes, thanks Ray for defusing the furor between the two of us and
thanks, BPutnam for being defused.
Look for a private message....
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep
and watch over those
you have gathered.
Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.
You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Donna,
You are exactly right. When we truly receive Christ as Savior He causes an indissolvable union to be affected between us and our Lord. As you said when we are united to Christ in the grace, power, and wonder of the Godhead, He proves to be our Advocate [I John 2:1] by way of interceding for us. Catholics should understand the concept of intercession. And that's why God tells us in Hebrews 7:25 that ' . . . He is able to save us to the uttermost who come to God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for us.' His intercession and atonement covers us because of the ministry and effectiveness of His grace. In the Roman Catholic view Christians are not saved forever, only until the evil one causes us to stumble. This kind of god is not very watchful, caring, or forgiving. The Christian God tells us to forgive 70 X 7 and yet He Himself cannot measure up to His own standard of behavior that He demands of us, according to the Catholic perspective.
Roman Catholics remain silent as to the chastisement of the Lord [Hebrews 12:5-13; I Corinthians 11:32] in His providential movement among God's people, because if they admit that He does discipline true Christians, this will disprove their awkward view of their church's outlook as to the mortal sin.
Protestants are people of the Book while our well meaning friends are people who are fused with the traditions of the finite, ecclesiastical church and her canon laws.
You are exactly right. When we truly receive Christ as Savior He causes an indissolvable union to be affected between us and our Lord. As you said when we are united to Christ in the grace, power, and wonder of the Godhead, He proves to be our Advocate [I John 2:1] by way of interceding for us. Catholics should understand the concept of intercession. And that's why God tells us in Hebrews 7:25 that ' . . . He is able to save us to the uttermost who come to God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for us.' His intercession and atonement covers us because of the ministry and effectiveness of His grace. In the Roman Catholic view Christians are not saved forever, only until the evil one causes us to stumble. This kind of god is not very watchful, caring, or forgiving. The Christian God tells us to forgive 70 X 7 and yet He Himself cannot measure up to His own standard of behavior that He demands of us, according to the Catholic perspective.
Roman Catholics remain silent as to the chastisement of the Lord [Hebrews 12:5-13; I Corinthians 11:32] in His providential movement among God's people, because if they admit that He does discipline true Christians, this will disprove their awkward view of their church's outlook as to the mortal sin.
Protestants are people of the Book while our well meaning friends are people who are fused with the traditions of the finite, ecclesiastical church and her canon laws.
thessalonian
New Member
"Roman Catholics remain silent as to the chastisement of the Lord [Hebrews 12:5-13; I Corinthians 11:32] in His providential movement among God's people, because if they admit that He does discipline true Christians, this will disprove their awkward view of their church's outlook as to the mortal sin."
Huh?
Ray, I said above that God disciplines us. How does this have anything to do with mortal sin. Read what I said above about God reigning us back by the trials that befall us when we sin. But what you don't understand is the very fact that we have sin shows that we can and do resist his grace for he says that we will be given an out (grace) when we are tempted. Yet I don't know about you but I sin. We resist the grace at times. So if we resist the grace that is given to prevent us from sinning, we can also resist the grace that is meant to call us from our sin. Eventually this can all end up in mortal sin and the loss of our souls if we do not respond to his grace. Once again that we do sin proves that we can resist grace. You are certainly no Catholic theologian so I suggest you stop trying to speak on Catholicism. Your making a fool of yourself.
Blessings
Huh?
Ray, I said above that God disciplines us. How does this have anything to do with mortal sin. Read what I said above about God reigning us back by the trials that befall us when we sin. But what you don't understand is the very fact that we have sin shows that we can and do resist his grace for he says that we will be given an out (grace) when we are tempted. Yet I don't know about you but I sin. We resist the grace at times. So if we resist the grace that is given to prevent us from sinning, we can also resist the grace that is meant to call us from our sin. Eventually this can all end up in mortal sin and the loss of our souls if we do not respond to his grace. Once again that we do sin proves that we can resist grace. You are certainly no Catholic theologian so I suggest you stop trying to speak on Catholicism. Your making a fool of yourself.
Blessings
Ray Berrian
New Member
thessalonian,
My guess would be that most non-Catholics have heard of venial and mortal sins. I would not waste my time on learning all the 'ins and outs' of Roman Catholic theology. It would take me year to catch up to the 21st century. Knowing God's truth is my ultimate goal as amply expressed in God's Word, the Bible.
My simple point to you people is that if a Catholic commits a mortal sin his relationship to the Lord is absolutely not broken. It is in your minds but that is all. If the relationship to the Lord God is broken, He then could not chastise the person as His son. [Hebrews 12:5] 'My son despise not the chastening of the Lord . . . ' When God chastens His people they are not 'bastards.' {notice verse 8c} This is Christian theology not Roman Catholic theology.
Best blessings of God to you.
My guess would be that most non-Catholics have heard of venial and mortal sins. I would not waste my time on learning all the 'ins and outs' of Roman Catholic theology. It would take me year to catch up to the 21st century. Knowing God's truth is my ultimate goal as amply expressed in God's Word, the Bible.
My simple point to you people is that if a Catholic commits a mortal sin his relationship to the Lord is absolutely not broken. It is in your minds but that is all. If the relationship to the Lord God is broken, He then could not chastise the person as His son. [Hebrews 12:5] 'My son despise not the chastening of the Lord . . . ' When God chastens His people they are not 'bastards.' {notice verse 8c} This is Christian theology not Roman Catholic theology.
Best blessings of God to you.
thessalonian
New Member
Ray,
I said it above in a post to Brian. Those who turn from the Lord no longer see it as discipline but their own bad luch or the word dumping on them. There are proverbs to back this up. Oh wait that is in the OT and the OT is no longer true for you guys. As for what I say being new, I studied Augustine so I suppose if you want to call 1600 years ago new that is your perogative.
You don't have God's word. You have a book you can't interprut correctly.
Blessings.
I said it above in a post to Brian. Those who turn from the Lord no longer see it as discipline but their own bad luch or the word dumping on them. There are proverbs to back this up. Oh wait that is in the OT and the OT is no longer true for you guys. As for what I say being new, I studied Augustine so I suppose if you want to call 1600 years ago new that is your perogative.
You don't have God's word. You have a book you can't interprut correctly.
Blessings.
Ray Berrian
New Member
thessalonian,
Now you are beginning to step into the Light.
You said, 'Those who turn from the Lord no longer see it as discipline but their own bad luck or the word dumping on them.'
Ray is saying, You are correct. Some Christians have been disciplined by the Lord and never knew it was His providence moving in and through their lives. This, however, does not detract from the fact that the Lord God was reproving them for their waywardness. This is the responsibility of more mature Christians to relate this fact to them. If God marked us off for the first time we step out of or away from His perfect will, we all would be candidates for everlasting punishment.
Discipline is temporal judgment or chastening in this lifetime, so we will not be condemned along with the rest of the sinners to Hell. [I Corinthians 11:32]
Now you are beginning to step into the Light.
You said, 'Those who turn from the Lord no longer see it as discipline but their own bad luck or the word dumping on them.'
Ray is saying, You are correct. Some Christians have been disciplined by the Lord and never knew it was His providence moving in and through their lives. This, however, does not detract from the fact that the Lord God was reproving them for their waywardness. This is the responsibility of more mature Christians to relate this fact to them. If God marked us off for the first time we step out of or away from His perfect will, we all would be candidates for everlasting punishment.
Discipline is temporal judgment or chastening in this lifetime, so we will not be condemned along with the rest of the sinners to Hell. [I Corinthians 11:32]