OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

[utilyan]

That is true - but in the Baptist context for some reason Arminian Baptists insist on OSAS even though you and I - and pretty much all Calvinist Baptists know that it makes no sense to do that.

I think it would be helpful to establish meaning of "saved". Like if you go to heaven (about the highest definition of being saved) I don't think you will drop out from there.

Do you think if after you go to heaven, its only a matter of time in eternity for you to drop out again?

 

[thatbrian]

That is true - but in the Baptist context for some reason Arminian Baptists insist on OSAS even though you and I - and pretty much all Calvinist Baptists know that it makes no sense to do that.

Yes. That's true. Most Arminians are being theologically inconstant, not just in not denying Perseverance of the Saints, but that point works together with the rest of the points just as the 5 counterpoints fit together. If one falls they all follow.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes. That's true. Most Arminians are being theologically inconstant, not just in not denying Perseverance of the Saints, but that point works together with the rest of the points just as the 5 counterpoints fit together. If one falls they all follow.

well certainly Baptist Arminians have that problem since they insist on OSAS even though they admit the Arminian free will model is correct.

But Arminians like Utilyan and I do not argue for OSAS - so we are holding to the consistent Arminian position in that regard.

 

[thatbrian]

well certainly Baptist Arminians have that problem since they insist on OSAS even though they admit the Arminian free will model is correct.

But Arminians like Utilyan and I do not argue for OSAS - so we are holding to the consistent Arminian position in that regard.

I would much rather argue with someone who is consistent in his beliefs, than not.

 

[Revmitchell]

Let's look at the text.

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

Again context is important. This passage is talking about Israel. There is a principle for us but the intended audience is Israel as she was a chosen nation. What you cant get out of that passage is we can lose our salvation. The context is the election of Israel.

 

[BobRyan]

Again context is important. This passage is talking about Israel.

The New Covenant is made with "the House of Israel" in both Jeremiah 31:31-33 and also in Hebrews 8:6-12.

The TEN Commandments spoken to Israel according to Exodus 20:1-7 which means "Do not take God's name in vain" though never quoted in the NT - was spoken to Israel and applies to all mankind as even the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 and D.L. Moody freely admit.

What you cant get out of that passage is we can lose our salvation. The context is the election of Israel.

"Every branch in me" -- each individual person being called in John 15 to "abide in Christ" --

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

 

[steaver]

But Arminians like Utilyan and I do not argue for OSAS - so we are holding to the consistent Arminian position in that regard.

How sweet to see Bob cuddling up with a lost (according to Bob) Catholic.

BobRyan said: ↑
"....if I were to reject all of scripture and become a Catholic "would I still be saved"???
Are you even serious??
Of course that would not be the path of salvation - that would be rejecting the Word of God."

 

[steaver]

One thing is for sure. If anyone believes in OSAS they have better be CALVINISTS.

Free Will ALLOWS for the Rejection

This is an interesting turn of events. Are you saying rejection of the Gospel results in one being lost?

 

[Revmitchell]

The New Covenant is made with "the House of Israel" in both Jeremiah 31:31-33 and also in Hebrews 8:6-12.

The TEN Commandments spoken to Israel according to Exodus 20:1-7 which means "Do not take God's name in vain" though never quoted in the NT - was spoken to Israel and applies to all mankind as even the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 and D.L. Moody freely admit.



"Every branch in me" -- each individual person being called in John 15 to "abide in Christ" --

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

You don't get it. Abide in me is reference to the election of Israel not the salvation of all men.

 

[steaver]

I think it would be helpful to establish meaning of "saved".

That would be very helpful. What is your understanding of "saved"?

 

[BobRyan]

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

You don't get it. Abide in me is reference to the election of Israel not the salvation of all men.

In the text it is "individual"

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out"...

Abide in Me, and I in you.

in the chapter some remain and others cast out... it is individual
Same thing with the sower and the seeds - some live and some die -- it is individual

Salvation has always been individually chosen or rejected. This is irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

This is an interesting turn of events. Are you saying rejection of the Gospel results in one being lost?

Are you saying it does not??

 

[Revmitchell]

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned



In the text it is "individual"

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out"...

Abide in Me, and I in you.

in the chapter some remain and others cast out... it is individual
Same thing with the sower and the seeds - some live and some die -- it is individual

Salvation has always been individually chosen or rejected. This is irrefutable.

Israel was chosen corporately. Again it is not about individual salvation. It is about Israel.

 

[steaver]

Are you saying it does not??

That question is for Utlyan. He and I had a long debate over rejecting Jesus Christ where he insisted rejecting Jesus Christ was not grounds for being lost. So I am very curious why he even believes one can actually lose salvation at all.

 

[Van]

I have numerous threads started by me on this section of the board dealing with the fact that the false doctrine of OSAS does not survive the Bible details.

So here is "yet another"

OSAS does not survive the Bible details
in Matthew 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked"

I am reluctant to engage when no specific statement is cited for support. Does Matthew 18 in any translation contain the phrase in quotes, "forgiveness revoked?" Nope. So first one must try to read the posters mind and figure out what in the entire chapter he thinks teaches loss of salvation.

I will take a guess, and say it is possible Matthew 18:35 is claimed to teach "forgiveness revoked."

35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

So the assumption here is that those referred to as "brothers" refers to those saved under the New Covenant. But that is an assumption, therefore "Scripture Alone" does not challenge "OSAS" in Matthew 18. What if a humble heart realizes that to beg for forgiveness on the one hand, but not forgive those we think have sinned against us is just another sinful self serving scheme, indicating we are not truly going all in for Christ's salvation. If we want to be treated one way, but want to treat others another way, our lack of integrity will not be blessed.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I have numerous threads started by me on this section of the board dealing with the fact that the false doctrine of OSAS does not survive the Bible details.

So here is "yet another"

OSAS does not survive the Bible details
in Matthew 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked"
does not survive the Bible details in Romans 11 where we see 'salvation revoked"
Does not survive the Bible details in John 15 where those 'in Christ" are cut off and burned up.
Does not survive the Bible details in Ezek 18 where we see forgiveness revoked.
Does not surive the Bible details in Ephesians 6 where we see salvation revoked

Does not survive Paul's statement in 1 Cor 9 - "LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it"

Does not survive Romans 2:13

Does not survive Romans 2:4-9

Does not survive the details of Gal 4 "I fear I have labored over you in vain"

These are not just "so many Bible texts to be ignored" --

Romans 11 is addressing Israel
In John 15, the "branches" which are "burned" did not ABIDE in Christ; they never did. The ones who DID "abide" in Christ "bore fruit".
John15: 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
ALL of the verses of scripture you posted are either about true believers falling out of fellowship or about individuals who were never saved to begin with. One of the two. The moment a person trusts Jesus as savior, that person becomes a "new creature", "born again", "born of God", a "child of God", "passed from death unto life", "old things passed away", "all things become new", indwelled with and sealed by the Holy Ghost, and "shall not come into condemnation". Here are a few verses.......SCRIPTURES PROVING ETERNAL SECURITY

 

[utilyan]

That question is for Utlyan. He and I had a long debate over rejecting Jesus Christ where he insisted rejecting Jesus Christ was not grounds for being lost. So I am very curious why he even believes one can actually lose salvation at all.

If you'd like to rehash that debate i'm all for it. The straw man is that everyone would even say that I or you or bob "rejects" Jesus simply on the grounds of not agreeing on things my way.

This xenophobic spirituality just shoots with any religion or faith that is not yours is evil.

I've been to that Baptist Thursday night bible study with the overhead project and I get the pastoral take of what other religion's believe, all grossly misrepresented, to vilify all that is different as much as possible.


The example is the GOOD SAMARITAN , whom you would swear "rejects" Jesus by not accepting him as God, personal Lord and Savior. But who Jesus plainly sets as an example of his commandments being followed.

Damn this SAMARITAN non christian to my face. Then we got a good starting point.

 

[utilyan]

Romans 11 is addressing Israel
In John 15, the "branches" which are "burned" did not ABIDE in Christ; they never did. The ones who DID "abide" in Christ "bore fruit".
John15: 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
ALL of the verses of scripture you posted are either about true believers falling out of fellowship or about individuals who were never saved to begin with. One of the two. The moment a person trusts Jesus as savior, that person becomes a "new creature", "born again", "born of God", a "child of God", "passed from death unto life", "old things passed away", "all things become new", indwelled with and sealed by the Holy Ghost, and "shall not come into condemnation". Here are a few verses.......SCRIPTURES PROVING ETERNAL SECURITY

Judas Iscariot meets all your qualifications as they are required of to hold the position of disciple, then the higher standard of overseer and then the highest standard of Apostle.

If I sent a spy to your house and he steals all your food for me. That would be a horrible thing.

But its alot different when your own best friend is a TRAITOR and BETRAYS YOU.

Judas Iscariot the the epitome #1 example of BETRAYAL. They have got to be on YOUR SIDE. If he was the Devil's spy the entire time, there is NO BETRAYAL.

The Devil tricked Jesus to appointing Judas Iscariot as apostle?


Judas WAS GOOD, JUDAS FELL. The next time you are lying on the floor, try and fall. You can't fall when you are the bottom!


A person can pull 150 verses against OSAS.

 

[steaver]

If you'd like to rehash that debate i'm all for it. The straw man is that everyone would even say that I or you or bob "rejects" Jesus simply on the grounds of not agreeing on things my way.

How about on the grounds of what Jesus Christ says? That would be a good starting point dodn;t you think?

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

This xenophobic spirituality just shoots with any religion or faith that is not yours is evil.

Note that the faith you speak of belongs to Jesus Christ, I would be careful calling it evil.

I've been to that Baptist Thursday night bible study with the overhead project and I get the pastoral take of what other religion's believe, all grossly misrepresented, to vilify all that is different as much as possible.

Well, here is a platform to set the record straight. Tell the board, can a person hear the Gospel and reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God and still be saved?

The example is the GOOD SAMARITAN , whom you would swear "rejects" Jesus by not accepting him as God, personal Lord and Savior.

Never ever said the Good Samaritan rejects Jesus Christ, the passage does not deal with rejecting Jesus Christ but rather who it is that understands who their neighbor is. We can speculate that this Good Samaritan once confronted with the Gospel of Jesus Christ would gladly receive Him as Lord and Saviour, he has a good heart and understanding, but that would just be speculation. However, what we do have is Jesus Christ making it very clear that anyone who rejects who He is will remain condemned.

 

[steaver]

Judas WAS GOOD, JUDAS FELL.

So you believe Judas believed Jesus was the Son of God but then decided to betray God? Yeah that makes perfect sense.