OSAS is a misleading term

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

You would do well to find out if scripture even supports this supposed "sin nature" that Protestants and Catholics speak of

The early Greek thinking church used "nature" in a totally different way than the Western, Latin thinking church does

To the early church, "nature" meant substance - spirit nature and flesh nature. Spirit and body. Dichotomy of substance. Immaterial nature and material nature.

With a Western, Latin mindset, "nature" morphed into construct and disposition. Bent and inclination.


Nobody is made with two "natures" inside of them, elsewise you would be made with two spirit beings inside of you. If you have two spirit beings inside of you at birth, one of them is a demon. You have one material nature, your physical body. You have one immaterial nature, your spirit.

The material nature, coming from Adam, is corrupt and sinful from conception.

The immaterial, coming from God, is not created in corruption, nor did Adam have the power to corrupt what God would later make. God breathes into each of us a sinless inner being. But at that time when each of us goes his own way, we become altogether corrupted.

The Biblicist asked what is born again - spirit, soul, body? That's an excellent question, and one which is lacking an answer in virtually all the church.

He is referring to substance. Which aspect of your substance is born again? So why does almost all of Christendom reduce "born again" to a mere change in disposition?

There is a recreation of your inner being. All your sins are removed by the blood of Christ. You are washed, cleansed, purified, and have put on a NEW MAN in your unseen parts.

Then you become a partaker of the Divine Nature, the Holy Spirit. He comes to dwell in you when you believe. So now you have YOUR sinless spirit and HIS sinless Spirit in you.

And you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of bodily redemption, when your material "nature" will be raised from the ground a new creation with all the sin removed from your body

That's why 1John 3:9 says that the one who is born of God is not able to sin, yet he says in 1:8 that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. He's striking against Gnosticism, which taught that we are a spirit being looking to escape the material world, so the flesh does not matter.

We are not. We are looking for our sin-wrecked body to be redeemed just as our spirit being has already been


Born Again is a LITERAL removal of sin. That's why Paul says he rejoices in his inner man, but fails in his flesh. He says in Titus 3:5 that we have been washed in regeneration, and Jesus calls the resurrection by the same word, regeneration, in Matthew 19:8-29.

That may very well be one of the best explanations I've ever read. :thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

You would do well to find out if scripture even supports this supposed "sin nature" that Protestants and Catholics speak of

The early Greek thinking church used "nature" in a totally different way than the Western, Latin thinking church does

To the early church, "nature" meant substance - spirit nature and flesh nature. Spirit and body. Dichotomy of substance. Immaterial nature and material nature.

With a Western, Latin mindset, "nature" morphed into construct and disposition. Bent and inclination.


Nobody is made with two "natures" inside of them, elsewise you would be made with two spirit beings inside of you. If you have two spirit beings inside of you at birth, one of them is a demon. You have one material nature, your physical body. You have one immaterial nature, your spirit.

The material nature, coming from Adam, is corrupt and sinful from conception.

The immaterial, coming from God, is not created in corruption, nor did Adam have the power to corrupt what God would later make. God breathes into each of us a sinless inner being. But at that time when each of us goes his own way, we become altogether corrupted.

The Biblicist asked what is born again - spirit, soul, body? That's an excellent question, and one which is lacking an answer in virtually all the church.

He is referring to substance. Which aspect of your substance is born again? So why does almost all of Christendom reduce "born again" to a mere change in disposition?

There is a recreation of your inner being. All your sins are removed by the blood of Christ. You are washed, cleansed, purified, and have put on a NEW MAN in your unseen parts.

Then you become a partaker of the Divine Nature, the Holy Spirit. He comes to dwell in you when you believe. So now you have YOUR sinless spirit and HIS sinless Spirit in you.

And you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of bodily redemption, when your material "nature" will be raised from the ground a new creation with all the sin removed from your body

That's why 1John 3:9 says that the one who is born of God is not able to sin, yet he says in 1:8 that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. He's striking against Gnosticism, which taught that we are a spirit being looking to escape the material world, so the flesh does not matter.

We are not. We are looking for our sin-wrecked body to be redeemed just as our spirit being has already been


Born Again is a LITERAL removal of sin. That's why Paul says he rejoices in his inner man, but fails in his flesh. He says in Titus 3:5 that we have been washed in regeneration, and Jesus calls the resurrection by the same word, regeneration, in Matthew 19:8-29.

I agree that new birth removes sin. However, where we disagree is that the basic division between material versus immaterial has no further subdivision in the immaterial between "spirit" and "soul." Hence, I would apply your removal of sin to the "spirit" only but not to the soul. I believe man is a threefold being for three levels of consciousness:

1. Outer world consciousness - physical body and senses
2. Inner world consciousness - soul (intellect, will, emotions)
3. Other world consciousness - spirit

What has been born of the Spirit of God is "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) and thus His Spirit bears witness with our spirit we are born again (Rom. 8:16). Hence, what aspect of our nature has been cleansed from sin is our "spirit" but not our soul or body. The soul is the point of warfare between the spirit and body. The soul is where we "put on" the inclinations of our spirit and where we "put off" the lusts driven by the principle of corruption in our flesh. The body is still dominated by the principle of corruption or the law of sin is still at operation dominating it with a perverted lusts for natural cravings.

The soul (intellect and emotions as expressed by the will as the will serves only to express thought or feelings) is the battle ground of spiritual warfare between the regenerated spirit and this body of death.

 

[The Biblicist]

The material nature, coming from Adam, is corrupt and sinful from conception.

The immaterial, coming from God, is not created in corruption, nor did Adam have the power to corrupt what God would later make. God breathes into each of us a sinless inner being. But at that time when each of us goes his own way, we become altogether corrupted.

I totally reject this theory altogether and completely. God never created any living thing that simply reproduced PART of its kind - the physical part. Ephesians 2:2-3 repudiates your theory completely as prior to indwelling by the Spirit of God, demons operated "in" the children of disobedience. Thirdly, that is why the "spirit" needs regeneration and removal of sin because it is dominated by the presence and power of the spirits of disobedience - demonic. When natural man reforms himself, Jesus said "seven more SPIRITS" enter in and take up residence.

Natural Man is not an ongoing creative work of God. What is replicated in the process of reproduction after its own kind is the WHOLE man not PART man.

Finally, infants are born with a depraved nature and their responses prove it. You NEVER have to teach children to do evil or be completely self-centered - it comes naturally and that does not come naturally from a spirit without inclination to evil or good, but a depraved spirit that manifests itself in evil and selfishness as soon as it is capable of expression.

 

[kyredneck]

FWIW, if by OSAS you mean 'once in the land always in the land', it is wrong. Even as Israel had to 'maintain' obedience to remain in the land:

Ye shall walk in all the way which Jehovah your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess. Dt 533

,,,,so must the Christian 'maintain' obedience to remain 'in the land':

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

OTOH, if OSAS simply means 'once regenerate always regenerate', or 'once a child of [the heavenly] Zion always a child of Zion', then yeah, it's spot on.

 

[Reformed]

FWIW, if by OSAS you mean 'once in the land always in the land', it is wrong. Even as Israel had to 'maintain' obedience to remain in the land:

Ye shall walk in all the way which Jehovah your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess. Dt 533

,,,,so must the Christian 'maintain' obedience to remain 'in the land':

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

OTOH, if OSAS simply means 'once regenerate always regenerate', or 'once a child of [the heavenly] Zion always a child of Zion', then yeah, it's spot on.

I'm a bit confused. How do you differentiate between having to maintain obedience to be in the land and "once regenerate always regenerate"?

 

[kyredneck]

I'm a bit confused. How do you differentiate between having to maintain obedience to be in the land and "once regenerate always regenerate"?

Because I differentiate between the eternal and temporal aspects of our salvation. The one in 1 Cor 5:5 was lost temporally, yet remained saved eternally.

 

[The Biblicist]

FWIW, if by OSAS you mean 'once in the land always in the land', it is wrong. Even as Israel had to 'maintain' obedience to remain in the land:

Ye shall walk in all the way which Jehovah your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess. Dt 533

,,,,so must the Christian 'maintain' obedience to remain 'in the land':

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

OTOH, if OSAS simply means 'once regenerate always regenerate', or 'once a child of [the heavenly] Zion always a child of Zion', then yeah, it's spot on.

Wow! I have never heard that kind of application of OSAS before? What has "land" got to do with the spiritual condition of a man or of a nation of people? OSAS has no application until first a person(s) are saved. It is the state of salvation that is secured.

 

[kyredneck]

Wow! I have never heard that kind of application of OSAS before? What has "land" got to do with the spiritual condition of a man or of a nation of people?

You like types, what did 'the promised land' typify?

 

[Reformed]

Because I differentiate between the eternal and temporal aspects of our salvation. The one in 1 Cor 5:5 was lost temporally, yet remained saved eternally.

I'm drilling down on this a bit just to make sure I understand you correctly. So, let's say because a Christian persists in a immoral lifestyle that God takes their life. They may be saved, but they suffered the loss of their temporal life because of their lack of obedience. Some believe that is what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. Because of their lying to the Holy Spirit they were disciplined to the point of death, but their souls were preserved.

Is this in line with what you believe?

 

[kyredneck]

No, 'saved' [sozo] has to be interpreted on an individual basis, I just presented a clear case where sozo is used in the eternal sense, but by far most applications of the word are intended other than the eternal. Mainstream Christianity has gommed the word up to be synonymous with regeneration or born from above when it is correctly to be understood as 'made whole', or delivered, in this temporal realm. Lost sheep become saved sheep when they come home to the kingdom through obedience to the gospel here on earth. No matter what they do they will always be His sheep, but remaining 'in the kingdom' is quite another matter.

 

[kyredneck]

Once a sheep, always a sheep.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Once a sheep, always a sheep.

Aye.
God's people have always been His sheep, never were goats,never can.be goats in His sight. Comforting thought.

 

[Yeshua1]

Once a sheep, always a sheep.

ALL of us were goats though once, and only became sheep when we received jesus thru faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

convicted1



:wavey: Correct Con 1 and I would like to publically thank you for seeing this correctly and speaking to it.

When I ask this poster to respond to questions I ask him based on His posts he does not respond. If I suggest he uses scripture...he hides, but will say something like this????

Where did I ever state wrongly what you see as being the truth though?

You don't even agree at times with your own Confessions, much less the Bible!

 

[pinoybaptist]

ALL of us were goats though once, and only became sheep when we received jesus thru faith!

So Christ came looking for lost goats?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Matthew 15:24 KJV
But he answered and said , I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

According to Yeshua this should be "goats of Israel".

 

[Reformed]

No, 'saved' [sozo] has to be interpreted on an individual basis, I just presented a clear case where sozo is used in the eternal sense, but by far most applications of the word are intended other than the eternal. Mainstream Christianity has gommed the word up to be synonymous with regeneration or born from above when it is correctly to be understood as 'made whole', or delivered, in this temporal realm. Lost sheep become saved sheep when they come home to the kingdom through obedience to the gospel here on earth. No matter what they do they will always be His sheep, but remaining 'in the kingdom' is quite another matter.

I am genuinely confused by your response, especially by this statement:

Lost sheep become saved sheep when they come home to the kingdom through obedience to the gospel here on earth.

I agree that there are sheep who are not yet part of the fold; i.e. they have yet to be regenerated. The term commonly used to refer to these still lost sheep are "the elect". Because they are elect there will come a specific time when they will turn from their sin and place their faith in Christ. At that point they will be declared righteous and just before God. Although predestined to be justified, justification takes place at a point in time. If that is what you mean by "obedience to the gospel" then I agree with your statement, inasmuch as Acts 17:30 states that God has declared to all men everywhere to repent. If you mean something else by your statement then please clarify.

Thanks.

 

[Iconoclast]

Matthew 15:24 KJV
But he answered and said , I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

According to Yeshua this should be "goats of Israel".

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Rippon]

ALL of us were goats though once, and only became sheep when we received jesus thru faith!

I will echo what some others have said. You are really off-base. You sound like another poster (not in this thread). I had to do a thread called Jesus is not a goatherder.

Please reference Scripture to prove your claim that "ALL of us were goats though once" -- are you sure you're a Calvinist?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

You don't even agree at times with your own Confessions, much less the Bible!

When you post a scripture verse in context , or answer the questions that are asked of you...then I will respond to you or your ideas:wavey:

I do not think you have even read any confession of faith.

You speak much about the bible...and I and Kyred have asked you over a dozen times to use it.
Not once have you used it to respond to anything.

if you make the statement that I do not agree with the bible as you just have , man up and take your best shot. Show it and offer correction from scripture