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OSAS is only a problem for people who don't trust God
- Thread starter billwald
- Start date
billwald said:
drfuss: "OSAS is only a problem for people who don't trust God"? Am I missing something in the title? Why would people who don't trust God have a problem with OSAS, since they are not Christians anyway?
For Christians who do not believe in OSAS, it is not a problem since their salvation belief has nothing to do with OSAS, but is based on continuing to trust in Christ.
For Christians who do believe in OSAS, they may have problems with OSAS since there is no scripture that establishes OSAS, only assurance scriptures that they interpret to mean OSAS. They have had to develop innovative, standard interpretations to explain away the many scriptures that warn Christians from stopping trusting in Christ.
The only Christians who would have problems with OSAS are those who believe in it, since they have to keep reassuring themselves.
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This is an interesting statement. I believe in OSAS, but I don't find any reason to keep on reassuring myself that I am saved. In fact, when one embraces OSAS they do just the opposite, they forget about worrying about their salvation status with God and begin focussing on serving the Lord and each other. It gets the mind off of "self".
God Bless! :thumbs:
Actually I find this an interesting statement. So those that are assured of their salvation can just “forget” about their salvation? This is like saying…I’m saved, what more use do I have for Christ?steaver said:
Furthermore, how can one focus on serving others without examining one’s self? In order for one to confess their sins shouldn’t one examine their self? Before communion shouldn’t one examine their self?
I don’t think it’s a wise theology to promote to a new Christian or any Christian for that matter that he should no longer worry about their salvation. St. Paul, the Apostle who said that, we should workout our salvation in both fear and trembling and that we should persevere until the end and finish the race, seems hardly the Apostle who never worried about his salvation.
ICXC NIKA
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Points to reason over concerning salvation. (2Cor7:9-10) that states such,"Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of : but the sorrow of the world worketh death."
It says that godly sorrow works repentance to salvation. Which is, what kind of salvation? These Christians already had salvation by hearing Gods word, believing it, repenting of that sin, and being baptized for the remission thereof, did they not? Why would they need to repent to salvation if they already had it? This passage of verses clearly points out that even those who were once saved, can so sin as to need to repent to salvation once again.
We also see in other verses that salvation from sin is an ongoing process. Once we become a Christian, the blood of Christ covers the sins that we commit and confess(1John1:7-10). But, we much like the prodigal son, can wonder off the correct path and rebel against our Spiritual Father(Luke15:11-32). If we die in such a state, then we will lose our inheritance and will not be a part of the Kingdom of God(Gal5:19-21, and 1Cor6:9-10). BD
It says that godly sorrow works repentance to salvation. Which is, what kind of salvation? These Christians already had salvation by hearing Gods word, believing it, repenting of that sin, and being baptized for the remission thereof, did they not? Why would they need to repent to salvation if they already had it? This passage of verses clearly points out that even those who were once saved, can so sin as to need to repent to salvation once again.
We also see in other verses that salvation from sin is an ongoing process. Once we become a Christian, the blood of Christ covers the sins that we commit and confess(1John1:7-10). But, we much like the prodigal son, can wonder off the correct path and rebel against our Spiritual Father(Luke15:11-32). If we die in such a state, then we will lose our inheritance and will not be a part of the Kingdom of God(Gal5:19-21, and 1Cor6:9-10). BD
That would be true but that is not what I said. Here it is again....."In fact, when one embraces OSAS they do just the opposite, they forget about worrying about their salvation status with God".
This does not equate to forgetting about one's salvation. And this does not equate to saying one has no use for Christ.
One should always examine themselves for sin and service. Paul does warn those who are blantently sinning to examine themselves to see if they have truly been born-again because he had doubt of them for their lifestyle.
Paul had no worries about whom he trusted in for his salvation. We all must work out our salvation, not work at our salvation. The race Paul finished was his service for the Lord. He kept the faith that was once delivered to the saints, himself included. Paul did not win salvation, he won the prize of his calling, he perservered in the faith keeping and preaching the faith unadulterated.
2Ti 4:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul did not say "henceforth I will be saved". No, he said "I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:" and thus Paul knows he has a crown of righteousness coming.
God Bless! :thumbs:
not to be repented of
They did.
We all need to repent, in small ways almost daily. Does this mean we get saved daily? Getting "saved" is refering to the rebirth. Repenting to salvation is refering to confessing our sins before God as they are revealed to us. It is a "godly sorrow" which the lost do not have.
......."for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of : but the sorrow of the world worketh death."
The passage is the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in the believers life. It does not mean the believer is getting saved again, and again, and again every time they sin and repent. Rather they are working out their salvation.
God Bless! :thumbs:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
A question to ask of each group - one for OSAS and one for non-OSAS.
1. Question for the OSAS group.
Are the perserverance texts worded in such a way as to "warn humans to keep breathing air as long as they are alive" as if some humans might not do that while being alive? (another example "warning humans to remember to age each day") OR are the perseverance texts of the form "Parents watch the influences the world has on your children's music, friends, entertainment, TV, internet, movies..."
Do they warn about REAL problems or fake ones?
2. Question for those who reject the failed teachings of OSAS --
How do you read Matt 18 on "forgiveness revoked"? Is Christ "Really" warning people that if they turn cold and refuse to forgive others after being fully and completely forgiven by God -- that their past forgiveness will be revoked??
in Christ,
Bob
1. Question for the OSAS group.
Are the perserverance texts worded in such a way as to "warn humans to keep breathing air as long as they are alive" as if some humans might not do that while being alive? (another example "warning humans to remember to age each day") OR are the perseverance texts of the form "Parents watch the influences the world has on your children's music, friends, entertainment, TV, internet, movies..."
Do they warn about REAL problems or fake ones?
2. Question for those who reject the failed teachings of OSAS --
How do you read Matt 18 on "forgiveness revoked"? Is Christ "Really" warning people that if they turn cold and refuse to forgive others after being fully and completely forgiven by God -- that their past forgiveness will be revoked??
in Christ,
Bob
Quote:
The only Christians who would have problems with OSAS are those who believe in it, since they have to keep reassuring themselves.
Steaver writes:
"This is an interesting statement. I believe in OSAS, but I don't find any reason to keep on reassuring myself that I am saved. In fact, when one embraces OSAS they do just the opposite, they forget about worrying about their salvation status with God and begin focussing on serving the Lord and each other. It gets the mind off of "self"."
drfuss: OSAS Christians have to keep reassuring themselves that OSAS is correct. This can be a problem since there are so many scriptures that conflict with OSAS. Again, there is no scripture that establishes OSAS as a belief, only assurrance scriptures for those who continue to believe, that are interpreted to mean OSAS.
OSAS Christians have to continuously revert to the standardized, innovative OSAS explanations when reading the many scriptures that warn against stopping trusting in Christ. Many have to keep reassuring themselves that those standardized, innovative explanations are correct in order to have assurance of salvation.
My experience has been that many OSAS Christians are afraid to objectively question those standardized, innovative explanations for fear that it would lead to questioning their salvation. This is because they have been taught that those who don't believe in OSAS are not sure that they are saved, which is not true. This has been an effective technique to keep OSAS Christians continuing to believe in OSAS.
The only Christians who would have problems with OSAS are those who believe in it, since they have to keep reassuring themselves.
Steaver writes:
"This is an interesting statement. I believe in OSAS, but I don't find any reason to keep on reassuring myself that I am saved. In fact, when one embraces OSAS they do just the opposite, they forget about worrying about their salvation status with God and begin focussing on serving the Lord and each other. It gets the mind off of "self"."
drfuss: OSAS Christians have to keep reassuring themselves that OSAS is correct. This can be a problem since there are so many scriptures that conflict with OSAS. Again, there is no scripture that establishes OSAS as a belief, only assurrance scriptures for those who continue to believe, that are interpreted to mean OSAS.
OSAS Christians have to continuously revert to the standardized, innovative OSAS explanations when reading the many scriptures that warn against stopping trusting in Christ. Many have to keep reassuring themselves that those standardized, innovative explanations are correct in order to have assurance of salvation.
My experience has been that many OSAS Christians are afraid to objectively question those standardized, innovative explanations for fear that it would lead to questioning their salvation. This is because they have been taught that those who don't believe in OSAS are not sure that they are saved, which is not true. This has been an effective technique to keep OSAS Christians continuing to believe in OSAS.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Arminian believers in OSAS have nothing at all to support their views from within Arminianism - In fact they cling to a glaring contradiction in their own belief system.
5 Point Calvinist believers in OSAS have nothing at all to support "assurance" since their view of perseverance of the saints - allows them to "Retro-delete assurance today" when they "fail to persevere ten years from today".
4 Point Calvinist belivers in OSAS are the only ones with a logic and reason in their belief system that allows them to have "assurance" since they take the short-cut of denying the Bible doctrine on perseverance to get there. So they can easily claim they are OSAS saved today and the assurance they have today is NEVER subject to being retro-deleted by some failure to persevere in the future.
That leaves only ONE biblically sound position left -- the Arminian that sees that scripture does not support the failed teachings of OSAS.
There are no other choices left.
in Christ,
Bob
5 Point Calvinist believers in OSAS have nothing at all to support "assurance" since their view of perseverance of the saints - allows them to "Retro-delete assurance today" when they "fail to persevere ten years from today".
4 Point Calvinist belivers in OSAS are the only ones with a logic and reason in their belief system that allows them to have "assurance" since they take the short-cut of denying the Bible doctrine on perseverance to get there. So they can easily claim they are OSAS saved today and the assurance they have today is NEVER subject to being retro-deleted by some failure to persevere in the future.
That leaves only ONE biblically sound position left -- the Arminian that sees that scripture does not support the failed teachings of OSAS.
There are no other choices left.
in Christ,
Bob
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steaver said:
You forgot the conclusion that was reached by one who's hand was lead to inspiration by the "Holy Spirit" and the text that Paul was lead to script in Gal5 was as such: He thus concluded that man was still capable of sin due to the fact that man still lived in a sin filled world and dwelt in a fleshly temple, even so that we are to live in the spirit, our spirit may be willing but we are often tempted by the flesh and even as such we have an advocate in such as the Lord Jesus Christ.....as Gal 5 clearly states what happens when one lets the flesh lead instead of the spirit.....
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelllings, and such like: of the the which I tell ye before as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law, And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. IF WE LIVE IN THE SPIRIT, LET US ALSO WALK IN THE SPIRIT. LET US NOT BE DESIROUS OF VAIN GLORY, PROVOKING ONE ANOTHER, ENVYING ONE ANOTHER......this passage of scriptures clearly tell us, that if we walk after the flesh even after we are cleansed by the blood of our Christ....we shall receive the reward of such walking and lose our inheritance to the Kingdom of God....as as did the prodigal son in the proverb given by the Christ himself. The atoning blood of our Christ continues to clean as long as we continue to bath in its glory.....if we become unclean and are caught in such a status we will be judged under the Law and not of grace....for the Blood cannot protect us if we stray outside its stream of love. BD
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Steaver writes:
"This is an interesting statement. I believe in OSAS, but I don't find any reason to keep on reassuring myself that I am saved. In fact, when one embraces OSAS they do just the opposite, they forget about worrying about their salvation status with God and begin focussing on serving the Lord and each other. It gets the mind off of "self"."
drfuss: Where did you get the idea that those who don't believe in OSAS are "worrying about their salvation status with God"? Except for possibly the Catholics, this is not true. I suspect this was taught to you as a part of your OSAS training.
Having attended an OSAS believing church for the past 15 years, I understand how hard it is for an OSAS Christian to objectively consider the many scriptures that conflict with OSAS. The OSAS supporting innovative, stardandized explanations are continually given each time an OSAS conflicting scripture comes up.
"This is an interesting statement. I believe in OSAS, but I don't find any reason to keep on reassuring myself that I am saved. In fact, when one embraces OSAS they do just the opposite, they forget about worrying about their salvation status with God and begin focussing on serving the Lord and each other. It gets the mind off of "self"."
drfuss: Where did you get the idea that those who don't believe in OSAS are "worrying about their salvation status with God"? Except for possibly the Catholics, this is not true. I suspect this was taught to you as a part of your OSAS training.
Having attended an OSAS believing church for the past 15 years, I understand how hard it is for an OSAS Christian to objectively consider the many scriptures that conflict with OSAS. The OSAS supporting innovative, stardandized explanations are continually given each time an OSAS conflicting scripture comes up.
Actually, since you asked, when the Lord called me out of my disobedience and into His word I began to study the subject on my own.
The two men God sent to me that led me back into the fold are opponants of OSAS. They are very good friends of mine and I pray and worship with them to this day. I was actually with one of them this past Wed night prayer meeting at the alter and we prayed for many things together there on our knees.
Many at my home church are against OSAS and even the preachers do not preach nor teach it. The denomination (C&MA) has chosen to not take any side on the issue officially but we discuss it from time to time among ourselves.
When we talk about it we do not slander each other and put each other down for the others beliefs about it-making snide remarks about the others view. Oh we try to make each other see the other's pov but we always give each other hugs and God blesses afterwards.
Actually most of my best friends in Christ do not agree with OSAS, but that doesn't change our love and kindness for each other. Paul said you can be somewhat great in many things but if you have not love you are missing the greatest quality.
I learned all I know about OSAS from my own private seeking of the Lord. It probably took about two years of daily devotional study on this subject before I made my decision. I could have just not bothered to care like most Christians, but God laid it on my heart to seek this out.
So, sorry to disappoint you by not falling into the mold you place on all OSAS proponents. The only teacher I had was the Holy Spirit. I did read alot of commentaries as well from both points of view, but when it came right down to it, it was crying out to God for the answer that sealed it for me. It all came back to faith alone in Christ. All Jesus, no self.
God Bless you! :thumbs:
I am a OSAS Christian and I never feel any need to keep on reassuring myself that OSAS is correct. Do you fellowship with OSAS believers who seem to have this problem?
And you are not alone in this thought but there is another side to this that says you are incorrect. Thus, we have a continual debate until the Lord Jesus returns.
I personally enjoy this topic, however, loving God and loving each other comes first and foremost. Whether OSAS is right or wrong will be towards the bottom of the reward cerimony I suspect.
It is ok to voice your opinion about your fellow brothers in Christ, but this is a debate forum and you could present some of these standardized, innovative explanations for us to review.
God Bless! :thumbs:
I guess I will take the bait although I still ain't quite sure of what you are talking about.
Can one truly answer as a "whole"? I believe each passage speaks of differing results of perserverance do they not? Is every one speaking on eternal life?
I mean here is an example of perserverance of the saved being God's work in the believer's life....
1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].
God Bless! :thumbs:
"Christian Reformed," and I suppose Presbyterians, take a different tack. The Bible and our catechisms are full of pronouns. Some refer to bad guys who will come to a bad end. Others, to good guys who will come to a good end. So when we read the Bible and our documents we assume that the bad guys are athiests, Catholics . . . and maybe some Baptists, while the good guys are CRC, Presbyterians, and maybe other Baptists. <G>
Steaver writes:
"I am a OSAS Christian and I never feel any need to keep on reassuring myself that OSAS is correct. Do you fellowship with OSAS believers who seem to have this problem?"
drfuss: There are a few who have this problem. Some others wonder if they are really true Christains, since OSAS says one who thought he was trusting Christ, but stoped trusting Christ was never a true Christian in the first place. If he were a true Christian, that would conflict with OSAS. When they have doubts, they are concerned if they are not a true Christian.
In our SBC church, they stress that a true Christian will exhibit some evidence (works), or he may not be a true Christian. I was saved in a non-OSAS church which I attended for years. That church did not stress the importance of evidence (works) as much as in my present OSAS believing church.
Steaver writes:
"It is ok to voice your opinion about your fellow brothers in Christ, but this is a debate forum and you could present some of these standardized, innovative explanations for us to review."
drfuss: Okay, here are the two main innovative, standardized explanations used in my SBC church for various types of scriptures. Note that without coming up with these explanations, the scriptures would indicate OSAS is incorrect.
1. That scripture is not talking about eternal salvation, it is talking about rewards, etc.
2. That scripture is talking about someone who is familiar with the gospel, but was not really saved in the first place.
Steaver writes:
"I personally enjoy this topic, however, loving God and loving each other comes first and foremost. Whether OSAS is right or wrong will be towards the bottom of the reward cerimony I suspect."
drfuss: I agree that OSAS is not important. That is because my salvation is not dependent on OSAS, but only on continuing to trust in Christ. From a practical perspective, the difference between OSAS and non-OSAS is only a "play on words". One problem is the misunderstandings by OSAS Christians believing that if you don't believe in OSAS, then you need to be concerned about whether you are saved. Of course, that is not true.
Within the past two years, I have debated OSAS on BB, particularly in the Baptist only sections. I choose not to get involved in yet another OSAS debate.
"I am a OSAS Christian and I never feel any need to keep on reassuring myself that OSAS is correct. Do you fellowship with OSAS believers who seem to have this problem?"
drfuss: There are a few who have this problem. Some others wonder if they are really true Christains, since OSAS says one who thought he was trusting Christ, but stoped trusting Christ was never a true Christian in the first place. If he were a true Christian, that would conflict with OSAS. When they have doubts, they are concerned if they are not a true Christian.
In our SBC church, they stress that a true Christian will exhibit some evidence (works), or he may not be a true Christian. I was saved in a non-OSAS church which I attended for years. That church did not stress the importance of evidence (works) as much as in my present OSAS believing church.
Steaver writes:
"It is ok to voice your opinion about your fellow brothers in Christ, but this is a debate forum and you could present some of these standardized, innovative explanations for us to review."
drfuss: Okay, here are the two main innovative, standardized explanations used in my SBC church for various types of scriptures. Note that without coming up with these explanations, the scriptures would indicate OSAS is incorrect.
1. That scripture is not talking about eternal salvation, it is talking about rewards, etc.
2. That scripture is talking about someone who is familiar with the gospel, but was not really saved in the first place.
Steaver writes:
"I personally enjoy this topic, however, loving God and loving each other comes first and foremost. Whether OSAS is right or wrong will be towards the bottom of the reward cerimony I suspect."
drfuss: I agree that OSAS is not important. That is because my salvation is not dependent on OSAS, but only on continuing to trust in Christ. From a practical perspective, the difference between OSAS and non-OSAS is only a "play on words". One problem is the misunderstandings by OSAS Christians believing that if you don't believe in OSAS, then you need to be concerned about whether you are saved. Of course, that is not true.
Within the past two years, I have debated OSAS on BB, particularly in the Baptist only sections. I choose not to get involved in yet another OSAS debate.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Assume for a moment that OSAS is not true at all -- as post 246 on the other OSAS thread proves from scripture alone.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1115869#post1115869
THEN in that case - isn't OSAS the modern day form of "tickling ears" telling people "not to worry about those Bible warnings they can't actually be real"???
If so - then isn't there REAL danger in the false doctrine of OSAS after all??
in Christ,
Bob
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1115869#post1115869
THEN in that case - isn't OSAS the modern day form of "tickling ears" telling people "not to worry about those Bible warnings they can't actually be real"???
If so - then isn't there REAL danger in the false doctrine of OSAS after all??
in Christ,
Bob