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OSAS is only a problem for people who don't trust God
- Thread starter billwald
- Start date
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
drfuss: The above sounds like Classic Calvinist responses. If you are a Calvinists (umconditional election and Irrestible grace), then the issue between us is not OSAS, but Calvinism. I agree that if you believe the Calvinist model, then you will believe in some form of eternal security.
I assumed steaver is not a Calvinist believer, but an OSAS believer. The Calvinist debate is a much bigger issue.
In the Baptist Theology and Bible Study section of BB, there is a good debate going on between the Calvinist Christians and the OSAS Christians. I think the name of the thread is Security.
Steaver, I don't know which type of Christian you are, but if in doubt, you may want to check out that thread to see which you agree with.
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steaver said:
drfuss: It happens.
James 5:19,20.
Matt. 13:18-23 - Parable of the Sower.
The many warnings in the book of Hebrews.
etc.
Of course the OSAS innovative, standardized explanations will explain away those type scriptures, because they conflict with OSAS. And OSAS believers will generally accept those explanations because that is what they have always been taught.
Jam 5:19¶Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Mat 13:18¶Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
In these two passages you see a freely forgiven person deciding they no longer want blissful eternal life?
And you make this statement about the OSAS Christians......."Of course the OSAS innovative, standardized explanations will explain away those type scriptures, because they conflict with OSAS".
I would love to see your own "innovative, standardized explanations" that declare these passages are speaking about a freely forgiven person deciding they no longer want blissful eternal life.
God Bless! :thumbs:
steaver wrotes:
"I would love to see your own "innovative, standardized explanations" that declare these passages are speaking about a freely forgiven person deciding they no longer want blissful eternal life."
steaver also quotes::
"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."
drfuss: He hears the word and receives it with joy (receives Christ), durth for a while and then is offended by the word (Christ). Of course it means a Christian can stop trusting Christ. What else could it mean?
steaver also quotes:
"Jam 5:19¶Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
drfuss: THe NIV says it clearer.
James 5:19,20 "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should should bring him back, whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Note that your translation says "save a soul from death", i.e. Hell.
The above says if a Christian turns from the truth, he will be lost unless someone turns him back to Christ. The person who turns him back to Christ will have prevented him from going to hell. It is clear to me.
Am I about to hear some of the OSAS innovative, standardized explanations?
"I would love to see your own "innovative, standardized explanations" that declare these passages are speaking about a freely forgiven person deciding they no longer want blissful eternal life."
steaver also quotes::
"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."
drfuss: He hears the word and receives it with joy (receives Christ), durth for a while and then is offended by the word (Christ). Of course it means a Christian can stop trusting Christ. What else could it mean?
steaver also quotes:
"Jam 5:19¶Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
drfuss: THe NIV says it clearer.
James 5:19,20 "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should should bring him back, whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Note that your translation says "save a soul from death", i.e. Hell.
The above says if a Christian turns from the truth, he will be lost unless someone turns him back to Christ. The person who turns him back to Christ will have prevented him from going to hell. It is clear to me.
Am I about to hear some of the OSAS innovative, standardized explanations?
drfuss: In a previous post, I pointed out that there is a difference between a Calvinist Christian and an OSAS Christian, see below.
"drfuss: The above sounds like Classic Calvinist responses. If you are a Calvinists (umconditional election and Irrestible grace), then the issue between us is not OSAS, but Calvinism. I agree that if you believe the Calvinist model, then you will believe in some form of eternal security."
I am curious. Steaver, are you a Calvinist Christian or an OSAS Christian? Note that justifying eternal security can be different depending on which type you are.
So many OSAS Christians have been taught both by preaching or reading that unless you believe in OSAS, your cannot be sure of your salvation. Although this is not true, it has kept many OSAS Christians from objectively considering scriptures that conflict with OSAS.
I said in a previous post that I am not going to get involved in yet another OSAS debate. The only reason I got involved here at all was to correct the implication that non-OSAS Christians cannot be assured of their salvation. So I am signing off on this debate.
"drfuss: The above sounds like Classic Calvinist responses. If you are a Calvinists (umconditional election and Irrestible grace), then the issue between us is not OSAS, but Calvinism. I agree that if you believe the Calvinist model, then you will believe in some form of eternal security."
I am curious. Steaver, are you a Calvinist Christian or an OSAS Christian? Note that justifying eternal security can be different depending on which type you are.
So many OSAS Christians have been taught both by preaching or reading that unless you believe in OSAS, your cannot be sure of your salvation. Although this is not true, it has kept many OSAS Christians from objectively considering scriptures that conflict with OSAS.
I said in a previous post that I am not going to get involved in yet another OSAS debate. The only reason I got involved here at all was to correct the implication that non-OSAS Christians cannot be assured of their salvation. So I am signing off on this debate.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:
He has not answered the question yet - we wlll see.
But while you're at it -- what do you suppose is his "other option" in Matt 18 since he is not going for the error of OSAS there?
Ok - so that was the third option.:tonofbricks:
in Christ,
Bob
steaver said:
He has not answered the question yet - we wlll see.
But while you're at it -- what do you suppose is his "other option" in Matt 18 since he is not going for the error of OSAS there?
drfuss said:
Ok - so that was the third option.:tonofbricks:
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BTW the title of this thread makes no sense at all - sounds like desparation for those in the OSAS camp.
At worst those who oppose OSAS are simply finding in scripture many instances of "real warnings" rather than fake ones -- and the OSAS guys are right in declaring them all to be fake warnings.
So this would not be a case of the non-OSAS group NOT trusting God's Word -- rather it would be claiming that they trusted God's Word TOO much and if they would just back off a bit they would see that they are in fact LOCKED INTO salvation and it is even easier than they suspect.
To ACTUALLY address that point the OSAS group SHOULD have titled this thread "The only guys that have a problem with OSAS are the ones that take God's Word TOO seriously, trust God's Word TOO much".
---
Kinda like the claim that those who believe in the Genesis Creation fact - are trusting God's word TOO much from the view point of darwinist-believing Christians.
it is not a case of DOUBTING God but rather of being in the error of trusting His Word "too much" --- even in this worst case scenario where the OSAS camp is correct.
in Christ,
Bob
At worst those who oppose OSAS are simply finding in scripture many instances of "real warnings" rather than fake ones -- and the OSAS guys are right in declaring them all to be fake warnings.
So this would not be a case of the non-OSAS group NOT trusting God's Word -- rather it would be claiming that they trusted God's Word TOO much and if they would just back off a bit they would see that they are in fact LOCKED INTO salvation and it is even easier than they suspect.
To ACTUALLY address that point the OSAS group SHOULD have titled this thread "The only guys that have a problem with OSAS are the ones that take God's Word TOO seriously, trust God's Word TOO much".
---
Kinda like the claim that those who believe in the Genesis Creation fact - are trusting God's word TOO much from the view point of darwinist-believing Christians.
it is not a case of DOUBTING God but rather of being in the error of trusting His Word "too much" --- even in this worst case scenario where the OSAS camp is correct.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
From the previous page -
A link disproving OSAS from scripture alone. There we see actual Bible examples of failure to remain in Christ.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...69#post1115869
Hard to refute those scriptures friends.
A link disproving OSAS from scripture alone. There we see actual Bible examples of failure to remain in Christ.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...69#post1115869
Hard to refute those scriptures friends.
And you accuse OSAS Christians of "innovative, standardized explanations".
I embolden the changes you made to the scripture to make it fit your view. The passage does not say "he will be lost" nor does it say "will have prevented him from going to hell" no matter what translation you choose. Yet you accuse us of innovation!
God Bless! :thumbs:
"The above says if a Christian turns from the truth, he will be lost unless someone turns him back to Christ. The person who turns him back to Christ will have prevented him from going to hell. It is clear to me.
Am I about to hear some of the OSAS innovative, standardized explanations? "
GE
Steaver answered you well. But may I add, You forgot God's Providence. He may use and does use men to further His own ends!
Am I about to hear some of the OSAS innovative, standardized explanations? "
GE
Steaver answered you well. But may I add, You forgot God's Providence. He may use and does use men to further His own ends!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
drfuss merely scratched the surface as we already saw --
Post 246 shows why it is that OSAS can never survive the full test of scripture.
Many if not all of us accept the Eph 2:8-10 statement on being saved by grace through faith.
But some seek to do it in a kind of Bible-snipping way where they excuse themselves from reading or "noticing" how the following NT text debunk OSAS AS if you really can turn Eph 2 into an "either-or" fallacy against the rest of scripture.
Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.
Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67
Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]
TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?
Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace
Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
--------------------------------------
Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come
Quote:
Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant
Quote:
by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
1Timothy 3:1-6
2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.
Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79
Post 246 shows why it is that OSAS can never survive the full test of scripture.
Many if not all of us accept the Eph 2:8-10 statement on being saved by grace through faith.
But some seek to do it in a kind of Bible-snipping way where they excuse themselves from reading or "noticing" how the following NT text debunk OSAS AS if you really can turn Eph 2 into an "either-or" fallacy against the rest of scripture.
Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.
Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67
Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]
TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?
Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace
Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
--------------------------------------
Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come
Quote:
Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant
Quote:
by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
1Timothy 3:1-6
2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.
Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79
drfuss said:
GE
As if you solved or answered anything! OSAS or Calvinist, I believe God's Word. Jesus, man, Jesus! I take Him at His Word. He assures me and all and only His Elect eternal irretrievable salvation. Make Him a liar; then me.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I believe God -- Believe Jesus -- Take Him at His Word...
Now let's actually "read" His Word -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1118992&postcount=58
Hmmm - how soon they "forget" the inconvenient points of scripture!
in Christ,
Bob
Now let's actually "read" His Word -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1118992&postcount=58
Hmmm - how soon they "forget" the inconvenient points of scripture!
in Christ,
Bob