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OSAS Trap

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kyredneck

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Jesus explains two births. John 3:6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

...and the creature being born has absolutely zilch to do with either one, 'who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.'

John 3:3-8, has nothing to do with baptism.

Very good! It has everything to do with being born from above. i,e., born from Jerusalem above, born of God, born of the Spirit, begotten of God.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, 'How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'
5 Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
 

kyredneck

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Baptism does not save anyone.

People do not get baptized in water to get saved

???

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3
 

DaveXR650

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Egad, that's been routinely done for years on this board, between supposed 'Baptists'. I consider @Cathode an interesting character (he's a very self-reliant type) and he's been well behaved.
I don't mind the diverse opinions, or the discussion. I read Aquinas, and always check into First Things. Pope Benedict even wrote one of the best papers on the Trinity I have read. I understand the idea of dialogue and I have even been criticized at church for being too charitable to Catholicism. But on First Things or Conciliar Post you don't find the type of stuff you see on here. You don't even find that if you watch "Coming Home". I don't think the excuse that it has always gone on among Baptists on here is a good excuse. I think I may take a break from this for a while.
 

kyredneck

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"Baptismal regeneration is the name given to doctrines held by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican churches, and other Protestant denominations which maintain that salvation is intimately linked to the act of baptism, without necessarily holding that salvation is impossible apart from it. Etymologically, the term means "being born again" (regeneration, or rebirth) "through baptism" (baptismal). Etymology concerns the origins and root meanings of words, but these "continually change their meaning, ... sometimes moving out of any recognisable contact with their origin ... It is nowadays generally agreed that current usage determines meaning."[1] While for Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof, "regeneration" and "new birth" are synonymous,[2] Herbert Lockyer treats the two terms as different in meaning in one publication,[3] but in another states that baptism signifies regeneration.[a]
The term is associated by some with John 3:1–21, where Jesus tells Nicodemus, a Pharisee and member of the Jewish ruling council, that "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God ... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God".[5]

Churches originating out of the American Restoration Movement, mainly the Churches of Christ, are also commonly believed to hold to this doctrine, though they dispute this to be the case. One author from the Churches of Christ describes the relationship between faith and baptism this way, "Faith is the reason why a person is a child of God; baptism is the time at which one is incorporated into Christ and so becomes a child of God" (italics are in the source).[6]...."

Baptismal regeneration - Wikipedia
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" and NOT born of baptism and the Spirit. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

All the ancient Churches from the beginning believed in water Baptism as regeneration, being “ born again “ of water and Spirit.

It was a totally universal belief of the Church until the 1500s, but became only the majority belief. Still is the majority belief.

Symbolic Baptism is the heretical invention of Zwingli in the 1500s, before him everyone believed in water Baptism being born again regeneration.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
So you personally can be guided in interpretations of Scripture, but the Catholic Church that preserved scriptures through persecution and determined the Canon of Scripture itself by her councils, can’t be guided by The Holy Spirit.

Who is arrogant again?

Ever consider your interpretations as possibly wrong, or have you quietly granted yourself that infallibility you outwardly deny.

If the RCC was guided by the Holy Spirit then they would not be in disagreement with scripture would they. You are delusional when you make your false claims and add doctrines not found in scripture.

The canon was established over time by Christians as they accepted the various writing of the apostles as scripture. This process began in the the first century when Peter called Paul's letters scripture 2 Peter 3:15-16.
We also know there were various lists of accepted books; 8 by Clement of Rome A.D. 95, 15 by Polycarp A.D. 108, Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books A.D. 115, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books A.D. 185, Hippolytus recognized 22 books A.D. 170-235. So we see that the canon was not established by the RCC as you suppose but rather by Christians over time as they accepted books as scripture.

I have never considered myself to be infallible in my interpretation, I am not arrogant like your Pope and bishops. They have placed themselves in the position as final authority of the interpretation of scripture. But we can see that they fail at that when they introduce non-biblical views into your doctrine.
 

kyredneck

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All the ancient Churches from the beginning believed in water Baptism as regeneration, being “ born again “ of water and Spirit.

We know better now, we know MORE than the ancients did about God.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan 12

You're conflating 'born from above' with 'saved', the two are not the same.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
???

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3


Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Baptism does not save a person. They are baptized because they believe.


 

kyredneck

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Baptism does not save a person.

Scripture quite clearly states otherwise. You make the same gross error as Catholics and non-Catholics alike, you take 'save' to mean in the eternal sense, i.e., 'save from hell'.
 
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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
"Faith is the reason why a person is a child of God; baptism is the time at which one is incorporated into Christ and so becomes a child of God" (italics are in the source).[6]...."
See. That's good information. There you can see the possibility of some common ground or at least ground for discussion. You can begin to understand each other. But when someone states a position for Baptismal Regeneration where they state that the actual act of doing so does constitute one's salvation, with no effort to explain other scriptures which make no mention of this being a part of salvation, and no thought is even given to those of us with a presupposition that the scripture record on this would be of importance - you quickly are at an impasse, with nothing else to say.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Scripture quite clearly states otherwise. You make the same gross error as Catholics and non-Catholics alike, you take 'save' to mean in the eternal sense, i.e., 'save from hell'.

Well that explains why you have such a mistaken theological view.

So if not save from hell what are they saved from?
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
If the RCC was guided by the Holy Spirit then they would not be in disagreement with scripture would they. You are delusional when you make your false claims and add doctrines not found in scripture.

I have never considered myself to be infallible in my interpretation, I am not arrogant like your Pope and bishops. They have placed themselves in the position as final authority of the interpretation of scripture. But we can see that they fail at that when they introduce non-biblical views into your doctrine.

You condemn others interpretations of scripture as if they are wrong and hold your interpretations of scripture are right.

On what basis? Because you say you are guided by The Holy Spirit in your interpretation.

You are claiming infallibly in your interpretations of Scripture, yet when asked, you say you aren’t infallibly guided.

The canon was established over time by Christians as they accepted the various writing of the apostles as scripture. This process began in the the first century when Peter called Paul's letters scripture 2 Peter 3:15-16.
We also know there were various lists of accepted books; 8 by Clement of Rome A.D. 95, 15 by Polycarp A.D. 108, Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books A.D. 115, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books A.D. 185, Hippolytus recognized 22 books A.D. 170-235. So we see that the canon was not established by the RCC as you suppose but rather by Christians over time as they accepted books as scripture.

All the Fathers you mention were Catholic Bishops. The Catholic Councils that determined the Canon referred to these fathers for the transmission of authentic scriptures from the Apostles.

The Catholic Councils used its own lineage of bishops to determine the Canon. Those bishops were the authenticators of the Scriptures handed down.

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

The Catholic Church knew what books were handed on in the lineage bishops, and which were forgeries, those not continuously handed on through the bishops.

Clement was bishop of Rome in the first century. We see him talk of Apostolic succession.

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

Notice Ignatius disciple of John mentions the lineage of the bishops of Rome, Anecletus, Clement, Peter.

“Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: ‘And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.'” Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180).

So by the time Catholic Church canonised the Bible at the council of Rome, they had a list of books continuously attested to and vouched for by preceding Bishops to the first century, and continuously used in their churches.

That is why the Bible is a product of Catholic Tradition.

All the writings of the Fathers come down to us through the Catholic Church because the Fathers were Catholics.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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So you don’t sin anymore?

You are without sin.
Actually since I’ve walked away from the Roman Catholic Church and was finally united thru regeneration with Christ, I’ve been able to minimalize my sin to swearing when I’m angry at something. When I was a Roman Catholic, I’d go the confession, regurgitating the sins that I repeatedly acted out and felt better due to a cathartic experience. That never gave me peace, it was like being an alcoholic who knows that drinking is bad for you, goes to an AA meeting but never stops his destructive behavior. Only the Holy Spirit can change your race to the bottom and so I believe that Regeneration, (the born again experience) must come 1st. As quoted by the Lord Himself, “You must be born again”
 

Cathode

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Actually since I’ve walked away from the Roman Catholic Church and was finally united thru regeneration with Christ, I’ve been able to minimalize my sin to swearing when I’m angry at something. When I was a Roman Catholic, I’d go the confession, regurgitating the sins that I repeatedly acted out and felt better due to a cathartic experience. That never gave me peace, it was like being an alcoholic who knows that drinking is bad for you, goes to an AA meeting but never stops his destructive behavior. Only the Holy Spirit can change your race to the bottom and so I believe that Regeneration, (the born again experience) must come 1st. As quoted by the Lord Himself, “You must be born again”

Confession is cathartic because we have within us an innate desire to confess and off load. Our conscience deep within us is God’s voice calling us back to him, not to hide in our woundedness.

We don’t confess to just anybody however. How many times have confided in someone only to be betrayed and our shared inner thoughts are weaponised against us. This compounds an injury or inner turmoil.

From the Catholic perspective Confession is a powerful encounter with Christ, that is, you are confessing to Jesus, not a priest.
The priest is acting in the person of Christ, and Jesus is the one that grants forgiveness and grace.

There is the assurance of hearing the Apostolic Judgement that you are forgiven. Especially for mortal sins. There is also the practical spiritual advice and encouragement to fight on in the Faith.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Confession is cathartic because we have within us an innate desire to confess and off load. Our conscience deep within us is God’s voice calling us back to him, not to hide in our woundedness.

We don’t confess to just anybody however. How many times have confided in someone only to be betrayed and our shared inner thoughts are weaponised against us. This compounds an injury or inner turmoil.

From the Catholic perspective Confession is a powerful encounter with Christ, that is, you are confessing to Jesus, not a priest.
The priest is acting in the person of Christ, and Jesus is the one that grants forgiveness and grace.

There is the assurance of hearing the Apostolic Judgement that you are forgiven. Especially for mortal sins. There is also the practical spiritual advice and encouragement to fight on in the Faith.
It is my preference to cut out the middleman and go directly to the source. I’m fairly certain that a priest can and often does offer advice however they are only falllible human beings and apt to get it wrong. I had a NYC priest once tell me to punch someone in the face… LOL, I did not follow that advice. Still, I had a Franciscan priest who cried with me because he sensed my sorrow at loosing a child… which I appreciated. So I’m not saying Confession is not therapy because sometimes it is, rather I’m saying it is a key component in separating the RCC from my now Baptist theology that I much prefer.
 
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