OSAS vs. Heb 6

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Absolutely. Salvation does not depend upon your works.

Will you have to answer for it? Certainly. You could lose your inheritance, which is based on your behavior.

****************************

What does the word inheritance,mean to you??

Isn't our inheritance to be with Jesus? If we lose it we won't be there?

There's only one place to be if your're not with Jesus!!



Tam </font>[/QUOTE]Inheritance is a family matter. Even if you're cut out of your parents' will, you are still their child, not matter what. You cannot be unborn, but you can lose out on what you get.

 

[steaver]

Now, those who believe OSAS say that He takes that choice away as soon as anyone accepts the gift of eternal life offered through Jesus Christ. Utter nonsense! God died for our right to choose. He will never take it away. If OSAS were true, we could never have ended up in the situation that we are in. The fact that we need to be saved, is proof positive that OSAS is a false doctrine.

Brother Keith,

He doesn't take the choice away, the choice has been made. It is a done deal, otherwise there is no point to a rebirth. Can you become unborn? Of course not, thus the point in a rebirth. It seals the deal otherwise Christ looks like a fool who cannot keep His sheep in the flock. But He is the perfect shepherd and when one goes astray He guides them back.

You are forgetting that the Gift is FREE. If it is free then why would one say yes I accept the gift and then later say no I don't want your free gift of eternal life anymore. That would be nonsense don't you think? What possible senario would there be for me to say I don't want my salvation anymore? It was free, i don't have to do anything for it, right?

God Bless!

 

[Hope of Glory]

A relationship is two-way.

Salvation is an event, not a relationship. Justification is based upon the relationship.

When you were born, you became the child of your parents. No matter how bad the relationship, you were still their child.

 

[jesusrocks]

I can't believe no one brought up this verse either:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

DISCIPLES.

It was followers--believers!--who left Christ when He preached a hard teaching. Were these disciples still "saved" after they decided to "walk no more" with Jesus?!

 

[steaver]

because no one responded before: how can the fullness of Salvation be had before we are in Heaven?

The fullness will not be had until we are with Him, but we have been given a deposit, the Holy Spirit, which seals our destiney to that ultimate fullness.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I can't believe no one brought up this verse either:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

DISCIPLES.

It was followers--believers!--who left Christ when He preached a hard teaching. Were these disciples still "saved" after they decided to "walk no more" with Jesus?!

"saved" means "born again". At the time of this preaching by Jesus the Holy Spirit was not yet given. There was no rebirth available yet. "Believers" would come and go, they did not have the indwellment of the Holy Ghost yet to secure their faith in all that Jesus taught.

God Bless!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by riverm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Romans 3:3 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible):

What then? If some did not believe, will their
unbelief cancel God's faithfulness?

So what you’re saying is that I being saved today, cannot over a period of time by outright defiance of rebelling against God and willfully rejecting His Son to the point where I no longer believe in a man named Jesus or that He was even the Son of God, die in that state and still be saved? ... </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't say anything. What did God say
on the matter?

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it?
I think what it means is

I being saved today, will not
over a period of time by outright defiance of rebelling against God and willfully rejecting His Son to the point where I no longer believe in a man named Jesus or that He was even the Son of God, die in that state. I will instead
still be saved and act saved.

Kamaroso: //The fact that we need to be saved, is proof positive that OSAS is a false doctrine.//

And up is red, black is left - make sense.

I think man has free will until he accepts
Jesus as Lord and Savior; then he has no
free will: he must stay saved, if he ever
got saved in the first place.

For the saved person:
Salvation past is JUSTIFICATION (initial salvation)
Salvation present is SANCTIFICATION (day-to-day
working with Christ to stay clean)
Salvation future is GLORIFICATION (the final
and eternal state of salvation.

Salvation is what Jesus does:
Justification is of Christ,
Sanctification is of Christ,
Glorification is of Christ.

Thus Salvation is both an event
(justification event, sanctification
events, glorification event)
and a process (mostly the process
of daily sanctification).

You know physically i get unclean
just living. So i have to wash my
arm pits every day.

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I can't believe no one brought up this verse either:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

DISCIPLES.

It was followers--believers!--who left Christ when He preached a hard teaching. Were these disciples still "saved" after they decided to "walk no more" with Jesus?!

"saved" means "born again". At the time of this preaching by Jesus the Holy Spirit was not yet given. There was no rebirth available yet. "Believers" would come and go, they did not have the indwellment of the Holy Ghost yet to secure their faith in all that Jesus taught.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Then why did Jesus baptize (cf. John 3:22)? Christ spoke about being "born again" previously in John's Gospel... unless John was writing "out of order", so to speak. I understand that the Spirit was officially given in Acts after Jesus had ascended into Heaven, but I don't think we can say that the Spirit was not active before then (for He inspired the writers of the Old Testament, overshadowed Mary to conceive Christ in her womb, etc.)

Besides, time doesn't seem like a good stipulation.

 

[gb93433]

The book of Hebrews addresses Jews who have become Christians who are wavering in their faith as new believers. They are riding the top of the fence amidst peresecution. When it is fashionable to live life as a Jew they do. When it is most comfortable to live as a Christian they live that side.

The writer of Hebrews tells them to quit vacillating back and forth. He tell them basically to live out their salvation.

 

[steaver]

Then why did Jesus baptize (cf. John 3:22)? Christ spoke about being "born again" previously in John's Gospel... unless John was writing "out of order", so to speak. I understand that the Spirit was officially given in Acts after Jesus had ascended into Heaven, but I don't think we can say that the Spirit was not active before then (for He inspired the writers of the Old Testament, overshadowed Mary to conceive Christ in her womb, etc.)

All of this is true but it does not change the fact that Eternal life, Living water, Holy Spirit rebirth was not given until after the ressurrection of Jesus Christ. This was new and with it brought eternal security on a very personal and perminent level.

God Bless!

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Then why did Jesus baptize (cf. John 3:22)? Christ spoke about being "born again" previously in John's Gospel... unless John was writing "out of order", so to speak. I understand that the Spirit was officially given in Acts after Jesus had ascended into Heaven, but I don't think we can say that the Spirit was not active before then (for He inspired the writers of the Old Testament, overshadowed Mary to conceive Christ in her womb, etc.)

All of this is true but it does not change the fact that Eternal life, Living water, Holy Spirit rebirth was not given until after the ressurrection of Jesus Christ. This was new and with it brought eternal security on a very personal and perminent level.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Where did you find that in the Bible? Why was there no eternal security until the Spirit was given?

Was there no eternal security prior to the Spirit's being given? Why? Why could some believers be "secure" and others not?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
I can't believe no one brought up this verse either:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

DISCIPLES.

It was followers--believers!--who left Christ when He preached a hard teaching. Were these disciples still "saved" after they decided to "walk no more" with Jesus?!

Yes. Rewards are based on faithfulness of the individual. Salvation is based on the faithfulness of the Lord. We can (and do) fail; he doesn't.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Yes. Rewards are based on faithfulness of the individual. Salvation is based on the faithfulness of the Lord. We can (and do) fail; he doesn't.

Amen, Brother Hope of Glory -- you are RIGHT ON !

 

[riverm]

So, let’s see if I learned anything. I can be “born again” at 18 years-old, live for the Lord for a few years, start whoring around, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, deny Jesus Christ’s atoning work, deny His Father and everything He and His Son stands for, for the rest of my living days and when I die, I’m home free because I got a “get out of jail free” card.

 

[steaver]

So, let’s see if I learned anything. I can be “born again” at 18 years-old, live for the Lord for a few years, start whoring around, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, deny Jesus Christ’s atoning work, deny His Father and everything He and His Son stands for, for the rest of my living days and when I die, I’m home free because I got a “get out of jail free” card.

Answer is no. You have discribed an unconverted "believer". This person appears to believe for awhile but has never recieved the Holy Spirit, they have no root. Our judgment of people is limited. While we can know them by their fruits we can still be decieved by wolfs in sheeps clothing so our judgment is always a reserved one and we must be careful. God will ultimately judge the heart of each one. Only those Christians who are VERY close to me can I say that I know they are truly born again. Most that I know I can only say that I am pretty sure, but the final decsion is up to God and not my call.

A true convert will not ever deny Jesus Christ even when found backsliden in sin. I know several and while they can make me doubt I still understand that the Word of God teaches OSAS. So these folk's actions do not shape the Word of God but rather the Word of God is to shape them. They will stand or fall by the Word of God. If they truly recieved Jesus Christ then it will truly show in them (Romans 8) and they will walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh, even if it seems that they are not doing well through our eyes. God sees perfectly.

God bless!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Riverm: //So, let’s see if I learned anything. I can
be “born again” at 18 years-old, live for the Lord
for a few years, start whoring around, blaspheme
the Holy Spirit, deny Jesus Christ’s atoning work,
deny His Father and everything He and His Son stands for,
for the rest of my living days and when I die,
I’m home free because I got a “get out of jail free” card.//

You didn't learn diddly squat. Such a person did NOT
get saved. If they had gotten saved, they would NOT
have started whoring around, etc.

OSAS is not, cannot be (it is unscriptural) a Sin
License.

 

[steaver]

Where did you find that in the Bible?

( But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified .) John 7:39

Why was there no eternal security until the Spirit was given?

Because there was no deposit of the Holy Spirit given. No rebirth performed. Unless you do not believe verse 39. Faith could come and go prior to this. If this is not so, and God performed rebirths prior to Jesus' glorification, then there is no point in the word of God telling us that the Spirit was not yet given and it would be a lie.

Was there no eternal security prior to the Spirit's being given? Why? Why could some believers be "secure" and others not?

It is God's plan not mine. You can read verse 39 for yourself. You can read the OT for yourself. Do you see anyone being told to be born again/converted in the OT? Jesus even said to Peter..."But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren. (Luke 22:32) Why did Jesus have to pray that his faith not fail? I guess it could have failed and Peter could have joined Judas. But Jesus knowing all said "when thou art converted". He knew Peter would make it.

Of course we know that Peter did deny Jesus, didn't he. But never again did he deny Jesus after he was converted, not even when faced with his own torturous death.

We live in the time of regeneration. OT saints did not have regeneration. Regeneration is God's plan to secure a bride for His Son. Once converted we are told to consider ourselves married to Christ.

The OT saints longed for eternal life, they seen it as a goal to reach. The NT saints know it as a gift that has already been recieved.

" Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father ".


" Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God :"

They did not have this prior to the cross.

" This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them ;" Hebrews 10:16

After what days would the writer be referring to? It is the NEW covenant. Born again! After the days of Messiah's coming to earth.

God Bless!

 

[jesusrocks]

But according to "Hope of Glory"s response to John 6:66, those who "walked no more" with Jesus were still saved. What does "walk no more" mean? It has to mean sin in some respect (for we all sin everyday), but I bet it also means that they didn't ask for forgiveness for their sin, that they no longer confessed Jesus to be Lord--to be the Christ.

Yet they were still "saved"?

Again, I have to protest, how would that fit in with Romans 11:22? It says, very explicitly, "CUT OFF". If you are cut off from the vine/tree, you are dead unless you get "grafted back in".

 

[jesusrocks]

Steaver...

Why was John writing his Gospel out of order? What did Nicodemus do after Jesus told him that he needed to be born again... why didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus that he would have to wait until the Spirit was given? ... are you saying a person can be born again without the Spirit?

 

[Charles Meadows]

You didn't learn diddly squat. Such a person did NOT
get saved. If they had gotten saved, they would NOT
have started whoring around, etc.


Well put Ed!