OSAS vs. Heb 6

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Riverm: //So, let’s see if I learned anything. I can
be “born again” at 18 years-old, live for the Lord
for a few years, start whoring around, blaspheme
the Holy Spirit, deny Jesus Christ’s atoning work,
deny His Father and everything He and His Son stands for,
for the rest of my living days and when I die,
I’m home free because I got a “get out of jail free” card.//

You didn't learn diddly squat. Such a person did NOT
get saved. If they had gotten saved, they would NOT
have started whoring around, etc.

OSAS is not, cannot be (it is unscriptural) a Sin
License.

Such a person will stand before the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ, and receive for his works. Grace is not a license to sin, but it is also not conditioned on works. To be saved one must only believe. If you have added the condition of works, then it is no longer grace!

Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[jesusrocks]

What about Romans 2:2-16? It's not the "hearers", but the "doers". Or Matthew 19:17, when Christ tells the rich young man to keep the commandments if he wishes for eternal life?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
But according to "Hope of Glory"s response to John 6:66, those who "walked no more" with Jesus were still saved. What does "walk no more" mean? It has to mean sin in some respect (for we all sin everyday), but I bet it also means that they didn't ask for forgiveness for their sin, that they no longer confessed Jesus to be Lord--to be the Christ.

Yet they were still "saved"?

Again, I have to protest, how would that fit in with Romans 11:22? It says, very explicitly, "CUT OFF". If you are cut off from the vine/tree, you are dead unless you get "grafted back in".

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul is speaking of the inheritance, not the free salvation that is by grace through faith, but entering the kingdom of God. Israel was cut off, and we were grafted in by belief. Grafted into what? The promises that God gave to Israel. You must continue in Christ in order to not be cut off from the inheritance. But the free salvation (being raised up on the last day) cannot be lost. You did nothing to earn it, you can do nothing to keep it, and nothing to lose it. Christ did it all on the cross, and it is finished.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
You didn't learn diddly squat. Such a person did NOT
get saved. If they had gotten saved, they would NOT
have started whoring around, etc.

OSAS is not, cannot be (it is unscriptural) a Sin
License.

That’s the copout answer I was expecting. Ironically I work with an older man who was a Presbyterian pastor for 25 years and pastor 3 churches. I don’t know all the details surrounding his de-conversion, but all he will tell me is that it was something that didn’t happen overnight, it was just events and things that had happened to him and those he was close to that eventually led him away from God.

So basically, this man who WAS a man of God who pastor 3 churches, IF God would have taken him during that time he would have been sent to Hell, because he was not truly saved?

1 John tells us how we can know we are saved and that’s by believing and keeping his commandments. That pastor above believed and kept His commandments for the better part of his life and now you say he was never saved?

Forgive me, I’m not a bible scholar steeped in Greek, so I’m a slow learner…

 

[Charles Meadows]

The biblical portrait of salvation is interspersed throughout various books. I agree with Ed in that I see salvation as a life changing event. The entry of the Spirit into someone's life cannot be a monir thing.

But I will concede that certain passages do present a significant stumblingblock to the "easy believist" stance. I would have to say that in summation I would have to say that if someone could truly abandon God (and not still retain conviction about it) the he/she couldn't have truly ever have been saved.

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jesusrocks:
But according to "Hope of Glory"s response to John 6:66, those who "walked no more" with Jesus were still saved. What does "walk no more" mean? It has to mean sin in some respect (for we all sin everyday), but I bet it also means that they didn't ask for forgiveness for their sin, that they no longer confessed Jesus to be Lord--to be the Christ.

Yet they were still "saved"?

Again, I have to protest, how would that fit in with Romans 11:22? It says, very explicitly, "CUT OFF". If you are cut off from the vine/tree, you are dead unless you get "grafted back in".

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul is speaking of the inheritance, not the free salvation that is by grace through faith, but entering the kingdom of God. Israel was cut off, and we were grafted in by belief. Grafted into what? The promises that God gave to Israel. You must continue in Christ in order to not be cut off from the inheritance. But the free salvation (being raised up on the last day) cannot be lost. You did nothing to earn it, you can do nothing to keep it, and nothing to lose it. Christ did it all on the cross, and it is finished. </font>[/QUOTE]So then you believe in "Universal Reconciliation"? Or is faith now a work? ...i.e., faith is no longer a grace given us by God, but it is something that we ourselves conjure up with our own might to believe in the saving Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? And once we've "conjured" up our own faith we no longer have choice? We must and will follow God in all things... does faith take away choice and free will?

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
The biblical portrait of salvation is interspersed throughout various books. I agree with Ed in that I see salvation as a life changing event. The entry of the Spirit into someone's life cannot be a monir thing.

But I will concede that certain passages do present a significant stumblingblock to the "easy believist" stance. I would have to say that in summation I would have to say that if someone could truly abandon God (and not still retain conviction about it) the he/she couldn't have truly ever have been saved.

How can someone be "truly saved" if they are still on earth?

Is Salvation in Heaven, or on earth?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Who came up with this ridiculous idea that a Christian's "inheritence"--that can be lost--is different from salvation? (I guess this distinction was invented to protect the heresy of OSAS from biblical refutation.) It's amazing the lengths folks will go to distort Scripture in order to protect the idol of OSAS.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jesusrocks:
But according to "Hope of Glory"s response to John 6:66, those who "walked no more" with Jesus were still saved. What does "walk no more" mean? It has to mean sin in some respect (for we all sin everyday), but I bet it also means that they didn't ask for forgiveness for their sin, that they no longer confessed Jesus to be Lord--to be the Christ.

Yet they were still "saved"?

Again, I have to protest, how would that fit in with Romans 11:22? It says, very explicitly, "CUT OFF". If you are cut off from the vine/tree, you are dead unless you get "grafted back in".

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul is speaking of the inheritance, not the free salvation that is by grace through faith, but entering the kingdom of God. Israel was cut off, and we were grafted in by belief. Grafted into what? The promises that God gave to Israel. You must continue in Christ in order to not be cut off from the inheritance. But the free salvation (being raised up on the last day) cannot be lost. You did nothing to earn it, you can do nothing to keep it, and nothing to lose it. Christ did it all on the cross, and it is finished. </font>[/QUOTE]So then you believe in "Universal Reconciliation"? Or is faith now a work? ...i.e., faith is no longer a grace given us by God, but it is something that we ourselves conjure up with our own might to believe in the saving Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? And once we've "conjured" up our own faith we no longer have choice? We must and will follow God in all things... does faith take away choice and free will? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think I have ever heard the term Universal Reconciliation, and I doubt I believe it, I don't believe in universal anything other than the universal need for a saviour. I believe in the accountability of believers at the judgment seat of Christ. If a believer falls into sin, he will not inherit the promises that are obviously conditional. The only thing a believer is assured of right now is being raised up on the last day. You have free will right now just as you did the day you believed on the Lord and were born again.

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by steaver:
QUOTE] Why was there no eternal security until the Spirit was given?

Because there was no deposit of the Holy Spirit given. No rebirth performed. Unless you do not believe verse 39. Faith could come and go prior to this. If this is not so, and God performed rebirths prior to Jesus' glorification, then there is no point in the word of God telling us that the Spirit was not yet given and it would be a lie.

Was there no eternal security prior to the Spirit's being given? Why? Why could some believers be "secure" and others not?

It is God's plan not mine. You can read verse 39 for yourself. You can read the OT for yourself. Do you see anyone being told to be born again/converted in the OT? Jesus even said to Peter..."But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren. (Luke 22:32) Why did Jesus have to pray that his faith not fail? I guess it could have failed and Peter could have joined Judas. But Jesus knowing all said "when thou art converted". He knew Peter would make it.

Of course we know that Peter did deny Jesus, didn't he. But never again did he deny Jesus after he was converted, not even when faced with his own torturous death.

We live in the time of regeneration. OT saints did not have regeneration. Regeneration is God's plan to secure a bride for His Son. Once converted we are told to consider ourselves married to Christ.

The OT saints longed for eternal life, they seen it as a goal to reach. The NT saints know it as a gift that has already been recieved.

" Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father ".


" Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God :"

They did not have this prior to the cross.

" This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them ;" Hebrews 10:16

After what days would the writer be referring to? It is the NEW covenant. Born again! After the days of Messiah's coming to earth.

God Bless! [/QUOTE]
So then are you implying that Peter never sinned again after the Spirit was given (and this is clearly unbiblical)? Do born-again Christians suddenly no longer sin? (for sin is a denial of the Lord)

Do sins have consequences after a person is saved? If no, why not?

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jesusrocks:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jesusrocks:
But according to "Hope of Glory"s response to John 6:66, those who "walked no more" with Jesus were still saved. What does "walk no more" mean? It has to mean sin in some respect (for we all sin everyday), but I bet it also means that they didn't ask for forgiveness for their sin, that they no longer confessed Jesus to be Lord--to be the Christ.

Yet they were still "saved"?

Again, I have to protest, how would that fit in with Romans 11:22? It says, very explicitly, "CUT OFF". If you are cut off from the vine/tree, you are dead unless you get "grafted back in".

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul is speaking of the inheritance, not the free salvation that is by grace through faith, but entering the kingdom of God. Israel was cut off, and we were grafted in by belief. Grafted into what? The promises that God gave to Israel. You must continue in Christ in order to not be cut off from the inheritance. But the free salvation (being raised up on the last day) cannot be lost. You did nothing to earn it, you can do nothing to keep it, and nothing to lose it. Christ did it all on the cross, and it is finished. </font>[/QUOTE]So then you believe in "Universal Reconciliation"? Or is faith now a work? ...i.e., faith is no longer a grace given us by God, but it is something that we ourselves conjure up with our own might to believe in the saving Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? And once we've "conjured" up our own faith we no longer have choice? We must and will follow God in all things... does faith take away choice and free will? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think I have ever heard the term Universal Reconciliation, and I doubt I believe it, I don't believe in universal anything other than the universal need for a saviour. I believe in the accountability of believers at the judgment seat of Christ. If a believer falls into sin, he will not inherit the promises that are obviously conditional. The only thing a believer is assured of right now is being raised up on the last day. You have free will right now just as you did the day you believed on the Lord and were born again. </font>[/QUOTE]what's the difference between "inheritance" and Salvation?

 

[James_Newman]

Thats a good question. Salvation means to be saved from something. Inheritance means an estate passed to an heir by birthright. Being saved from the lake of fire is not the same thing as inheriting a kingdom. Salvation doesn't always mean the same thing in the bible, but because most will not see the division, I use the term salvation to mean our free eternal salvation on the last day, and inheritance to mean those things that will be received only by those who are obedient.

So, a man must be born into the household of God to be able to receive any inheritance, but just as Israel was cut off, we may be cut off also.

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Thats a good question. Salvation means to be saved from something. Inheritance means an estate passed to an heir by birthright. Being saved from the lake of fire is not the same thing as inheriting a kingdom. Salvation doesn't always mean the same thing in the bible, but because most will not see the division, I use the term salvation to mean our free eternal salvation on the last day, and inheritance to mean those things that will be received only by those who are obedient.

So, a man must be born into the household of God to be able to receive any inheritance, but just as Israel was cut off, we may be cut off also.

Where is that laid out in the Bible?

Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 that those who do the will of the Father INHERIT eternal life. Then, can one have "salvation" without "eternal life"?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
Where is that laid out in the Bible?

Nowhere. It's just one of the bad fruits of OSAS and dispensationalsim to make such false distinctions.

Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 that those who do the will of the Father INHERIT eternal life. Then, can one have "salvation" without "eternal life"? ]

Good point.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
Thats a good question. Salvation means to be saved from something. Inheritance means an estate passed to an heir by birthright. Being saved from the lake of fire is not the same thing as inheriting a kingdom. Salvation doesn't always mean the same thing in the bible, but because most will not see the division, I use the term salvation to mean our free eternal salvation on the last day, and inheritance to mean those things that will be received only by those who are obedient.

So, a man must be born into the household of God to be able to receive any inheritance, but just as Israel was cut off, we may be cut off also.

Where is that laid out in the Bible?

Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 that those who do the will of the Father INHERIT eternal life. Then, can one have "salvation" without "eternal life"? </font>[/QUOTE]No, Matthew 7:21 says
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Often eternal life in the bible is talking about the kingdom, you have to take the context into consideration.

 

[jesusrocks]

semantics...

Nonetheless, where does Christ distinguish between inheritance and Salvation?

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
The biblical portrait of salvation is interspersed throughout various books. I agree with Ed in that I see salvation as a life changing event. The entry of the Spirit into someone's life cannot be a monir thing.

But I will concede that certain passages do present a significant stumblingblock to the "easy believist" stance. I would have to say that in summation I would have to say that if someone could truly abandon God (and not still retain conviction about it) the he/she couldn't have truly ever have been saved.

Charles,

Let me explain my position better. I don’t believe the bible promotes OSAS even though I was raised a IFB hearing OSAS preached over and over, even Paul in Philippians 2:12, didn’t sound like someone secure in his own salvation. But that’s for the Greek theologians here to debate; Paul says what he says…period.

“Born again” is mentioned one time and that’s all we hear now, even though the rest of the 27 books that make-up the NT tells us how we need to respond to this free gift and how we are to keep it.

1 John says that we are to keep His commandments and believe on the name of Jesus Christ and God dwells in us and if we don’t, then we are a liar and the truth is not in us, but if we sin we have an advocate in Jesus Christ.

I’m not saying one can backslide and be lost. I don’t believe that you can be saved today and be lost tomorrow, but I believe that a continual pattern of purposeful premeditated disobedience, the utmost spiritual rebellion, the hardened set-chin spiritual defiance can cause one to lose his or her salvation.

And let me add this, if a Christian continues to develop his or her walk with Christ on a daily bases, then the likelihood of this ever happening is very, very slim. Our relationship with Christ and how we develop it is much more important than the initiating event. This is why I am so against Altar Calls, without any programs set-up to help develop that new Christian in his or her walk.

Blessings

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you can be lost by your works, then your salvation is determined by your works. We're not saved by our works (or lack of them), nor are we saved because we "prove" it. We are saved (common salvation) by the finished work of the Lord Jesus.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
If you can be lost by your works, then your salvation is determined by your works. We're not saved by our works (or lack of them), nor are we saved because we "prove" it. We are saved (common salvation) by the finished work of the Lord Jesus.

Hi Hope of Glory

How are we saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ? What must one do in order to receive this eternal life?

According to 1 John says that we must keep His commandments and that we must believe on the name of Jesus Christ. IF we don’t, then we are a liar and we don’t have God in us.

I looked up the Greek word “commandments” that echo through out 1 John as well as other books of the NT and here’s the outline of Biblical usage per the Blue Letter Bible:

1) an order, command, charge, precept, injunction
a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office
2) a commandment
a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done
1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood
2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition

In addition to believing on the name of Jesus Christ, looks to me like there are some commandments that we must keep.

I’m just repeating what 1 John is saying and trying to put 2 and 2 together. Do you have any views on what John is talking about in 1 John in addition to believing?

Blessings

 

[Charles Meadows]

Riverm,

I would not say that I believe "OSAS". I prefer the term "perseverence of the saints".

By its nature I think salvation is an indwelling of God and as such is a permanent change from A to B. I certainly realize some of the difficulties with various passages but I find the best explanation to be that those who are truly indwelled with the Spirit will never fall away.