OSAS vs. Heb 6

[riverm]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Riverm,

I would not say that I believe "OSAS". I prefer the term "perseverence of the saints".

By its nature I think salvation is an indwelling of God and as such is a permanent change from A to B. I certainly realize some of the difficulties with various passages but I find the best explanation to be that those who are truly indwelled with the Spirit will never fall away.

Charles,

I agree with you, which is why I stated earlier that as long as a Christian is developing his or her walk with Christ that the odds of ever denying Christ’s free gift would be almost impossible. We’d have high security, immense security.

But to claim that one was never truly saved to begin with is a little far fetched. I feel personally that my walk with Christ is strong. I go to Church, a healthy prayer life. I’m taking bible classes at a local Christian University. I’m involved in a 36 week Disciple class at a Methodist Church. I’m setting an example for my kids. So I feel that I am focused on Christ.

I don’t know the future, only God does, but like that of Job, I don’t know what kind of events that may take place in my future life that may shake the very core of my beliefs. All I can do is stay focused on Christ, day to day and pray that if something does rock my world that I will stay focused on Him.

So to claim that one was never truly saved, then how does anyone know if their truly saved?

Blessings

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Riverm,

I would not say that I believe "OSAS". I prefer the term "perseverence of the saints".

By its nature I think salvation is an indwelling of God and as such is a permanent change from A to B. I certainly realize some of the difficulties with various passages but I find the best explanation to be that those who are truly indwelled with the Spirit will never fall away.

Salvation=indwelling of God?

What happened to eternal life and Heaven? What are the saints perservering for?

 

[bmerr]

To All,

bmerr here. Several posts have made the argument that one cannot be "un-born" as a child of God any more than one can be "un-born" as a child of human parents. Believe it or not, I can agree with this.

However, the relationship between Christ and the church, (and thus, Christ and the Christian), is only compared to the husband/wife relationship (Eph 5:22-32). If an unfaithful spouse can be put away, why could an unfaithful Christian not be put away from Christ?

It is one's obedience to a master that makes him a servant (Rom 6:16-23). When one becomes a Christian, or obeys the gospel, he turns from serving the lusts of the flesh to serving Christ. If that one later turns back to serving the lusts of the flesh, it doesn't mean that he never obeyed the gospel, but it does mean he will have his portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:42-46).

Before I'm misrepresented as advocating sinless perfection, let me say that that is not what I'm talking about. Christians can, and do sin. There is provision for this included in "walking in the light" (1 John 1:7).

Heb 6 speaks of those who turn back from following Christ to living in rebellion toward God, whether leading lives characterized by sinful conduct, or teaching false doctrine.

Remember Ananias and Sapphira, who lied about their contribution to Peter (Acts 5)? Peter knew of their deception immediately, and they were judged for it, taking their place with "all liars" (Rev 21:8).

And then think of Demas, who was once a faithful worker with Paul (Phil 4:14), but later forsook Paul, having loved this present world (2 Tim 4:10). John said that if any man loved the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 John 2:15). Are we to think that Paul was fooled about Demas? Would the Holy Spirit provide information to one apostle that He would withhold from another?

There is certainly security in Christ. But Christians have the command to "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21). We are kept by Christ also (Jude 24). It's likened to a marriage, which requires faithfulness on the part of the Bridegroom (Christ), and on the part of the bride (Christians). Jesus has His end covered. The rest is up to us.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Robert J Hutton]

I wonder if BB members may find it helpful to look up the following link:

www.evangelicaloutreach.org

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
semantics...

Nonetheless, where does Christ distinguish between inheritance and Salvation?

First we have the Old Testament as an example.

Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians attempting to do were drowned.

1 Corinthians 10:1-6
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

That passing through the Red Sea is a picture of your salvation, they did not do anything, God parted the waters and they walked on through to the other side. But every one that passed through that 'baptism' and drank of that spiritual Rock that was Christ did not enter into the promised land. They did not recieve the inheritance, even though they were 'saved' out of the bondage of Egypt. When they were told to fight the giants, they fainted because of unbelief. We are told, now that we are saved, to overcome the giants of sin in our lives. When we faint, it will be because of unbelief as well. And if we faint, we will not enter into the promise.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[jesusrocks]

But before we were told that the Holy Spirit (the "securer" of our eternal destiny) wasn't given until after Jesus ascended into Heaven. Therefore, by this logic, those in the Old Testament (including Abraham) were not "secure" in their Salvation. Do you disagree with this? (if so, then we are back to John 6:66)

If you agree with that premise, why are you citing the Old Testament passages where Salvation wasn't secure because the Holy Spirit hadn't been given?

Furthermore, any New Testament examples about inheritance and Salvation? (I don't necessarily disagree about the distinction, I just disagree that Salvation is something to be had on earth--or that it is impossible for a believer to turn away from Christ and eternal life)

 

[tamborine lady]

Hope of Glory said:Inheritance is a family matter. Even if you're cut out of your parents' will, you are still their child, not matter what. You cannot be unborn, but you can lose out on what you get.

O.K., so tell me, if I lose my inheritance from God, even though He is my Father, where do I wind up? In your opinion?

Peace,

Tam

 

[Charles Meadows]

Jesusrocks,

In short I believe that when a person gets saved he/she is indwelled by the Spirit of God. When that person dies he/she goes to heaven.

An individual may attend church regularly or may even have an emotional experiece suggesting salvation - but if he/she can continue to sin without conviction - or could ever truly leave God then I conclude that that individual was never saved to begin with.

Regarding perseverence of the saints and eternal security - "OSAS" is a poor way to conceptualize what this means. The reformers stated that a person who had accepted Christ would never lose that salvation; they would be preserved. He has passed from death into life. Thus true salvation is not something which can be lost.

Heaven is after death.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
In other words,
he was arguing that you can't lose your salvation because, if you could, you could never regain it because you'd have to sacrifice Christ a second time.//

Amen, Sibling Snitzelhoff -- RIGHT ON!!!

CORRECT

"IF" we were charged with so much as "ONE SIN" after being saved, Jesus would have to return and die for that sin,

and "WHO" doesn't continue to sin after being saved???

OSAS, is as "CERTAIN" as Jesus died for "ALL YOUR SINS", not just the ones before you were saved, but "ALL YOUR SINS".

The "LAW" won't allow the "DEBT" of even "ONE SIN" to go "UNPAID", every "jot/title" the law requires will be "PAID", and Jesus is only dying "ONCE".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Hope of Glory said:Inheritance is a family matter. Even if you're cut out of your parents' will, you are still their child, not matter what. You cannot be unborn, but you can lose out on what you get.

O.K., so tell me, if I lose my inheritance from God, even though He is my Father, where do I wind up? In your opinion?

Peace,

Tam

"REWARDS" are restricted to those who are saved, the "Unsaved" are not qualify for a "Reward".

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as "BY FIRE". (word of God)

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
But before we were told that the Holy Spirit (the "securer" of our eternal destiny) wasn't given until after Jesus ascended into Heaven. Therefore, by this logic, those in the Old Testament (including Abraham) were not "secure" in their Salvation. Do you disagree with this? (if so, then we are back to John 6:66)

If you agree with that premise, why are you citing the Old Testament passages where Salvation wasn't secure because the Holy Spirit hadn't been given?

Furthermore, any New Testament examples about inheritance and Salvation? (I don't necessarily disagree about the distinction, I just disagree that Salvation is something to be had on earth--or that it is impossible for a believer to turn away from Christ and eternal life)

I don't understand why you would say that the Holy Spirit secured your salvation when it was the Son of God on the cross bearing your sin. But everything in the Old Testament is written as an example to us. In the new testament, we can see the distinction between salvation as a free gift, and the inheritance as a reward.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

We do not work for the free gift.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If the free gift were dependant upon works, then it would not be a gift of grace, but it would be a reward, reckoned of debt. In other words, it would be a payment for our works.

Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Which is what the reward of the inheritance is. There is truth that it is all of grace, because it is Christ who gives us the power to overcome, it is ultimately Christ working through us that will bring us into the inheritance. But it requires participation on our part, whereas the free gift is just that, a free gift that God gives to any man who believes.

Is God ever going to take away a gift that He has given?
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[jesusrocks]

James... go back and read this thread. Those weren't my words about the Holy Spirit, nor would I disagree that the Old Testament leads to the New, but that's not what this is about... How are believers saved? By the grace of Christ that flows from the Cross on which He was crucified. We accept that grace through faith (which is also a grace) that we must be humble enough to accept). But having that faith for a time does not guarantee that we will always embrace it-- for indeed, we reject that grace of faith when we turn from God in sin. And we must come back to God in faith through grace to ask pardon for our sins (and this doesn't mean we have to crucify Christ again.. such a notion is absurd). But our sins DO have consequences.


It's free but "requires participation"... is faith now a "work"?

Again, what about John 6:66-- BELIEVERS--Disciples walked away from Christ. Are you going to tell me that these believers were still saved? Is that what the Bible implies there?

 

[steaver]

Steaver...

Why was John writing his Gospel out of order? What did Nicodemus do after Jesus told him that he needed to be born again...

Nicodemus argued with Him. He had no understanding of being born again.

why didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus that he would have to wait until the Spirit was given?

why did Jesus tell His disciples to wait? why does John tell us that the Spirit was not yet given? Just because Jesus didn't tell Nic to wait doesn't mean he didn't have to. In fact we know from the scripture that he had no choice but to wait because the Spirit had not yet been given.

are you saying a person can be born again without the Spirit?

How did I say that? I am the one who is declaring that born again does not happen until after the glorification of Jesus (exactly what the scripture says). Where do you read that Nic became born again?

Have you even considered my post about Peter's conversion and my questions about the New Covenant? I will deal with all of your questions to me unless another member already covers it first. How about dealing with my questions to you?

You are insisting that the regenerating work of the Spirit (rebirth, born of God, conversion) was given throughout the history of mankind, yet the scripture insist that it wasn't. How do you deal with this?

God Bless!

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
James... go back and read this thread. Those weren't my words about the Holy Spirit, nor would I disagree that the Old Testament leads to the New, but that's not what this is about... How are believers saved? By the grace of Christ that flows from the Cross on which He was crucified. We accept that grace through faith (which is also a grace) that we must be humble enough to accept). But having that faith for a time does not guarantee that we will always embrace it-- for indeed, we reject that grace of faith when we turn from God in sin. And we must come back to God in faith through grace to ask pardon for our sins (and this doesn't mean we have to crucify Christ again.. such a notion is absurd). But our sins DO have consequences.


It's free but "requires participation"... is faith now a "work"?

Again, what about John 6:66-- BELIEVERS--Disciples walked away from Christ. Are you going to tell me that these believers were still saved? Is that what the Bible implies there?

I'm not going to try to draw a diagram explaining how grace flows from the cross, because I don't understand it. All I know is that if a man believes, Jesus said He would raise that man up on the last day. Is believing participating in our salvation? Not in the sense that there is a work involved. I don't think you can pat yourself on the back for believing that Christ paid the price of sin for you.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
So, no, belief is not work.

John 6:66, I don't have any problem believing that they may be saved. Disciples turn away from the Lord every day. I turned away for a time, and it is only the Lord's mercy that brought me back, but I don't think that I wasn't saved, even though at the time I wasn't even sure if I still believed in God. If I had passed while in that state, I would have found myself at the judgment seat of Christ and received for my works just like it says.

Luke 12:45-48
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> why didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus that he would have to wait until the Spirit was given?

why did Jesus tell His disciples to wait? why does John tell us that the Spirit was not yet given? Just because Jesus didn't tell Nic to wait doesn't mean he didn't have to. In fact we know from the scripture that he had no choice but to wait because the Spirit had not yet been given.</font>[/QUOTE]Where does Jesus tell His disciples to "wait to be born-again"?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> are you saying a person can be born again without the Spirit?

How did I say that? I am the one who is declaring that born again does not happen until after the glorification of Jesus (exactly what the scripture says). Where do you read that Nic became born again?</font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe I stated that Nicodemus became born-again... I was asking if you believed a person to be born-again without the Spirit, to which you have replied, 'no'... but then again we are left with the fact that Jesus does not tell Nicodemus that he must wait-- why is this? Even if Nicodemus and others have no choice but to wait, you would think that Jesus would make sure to include that this wasn't an attainable thing for them at this point in time-- what then was even the point of mentioning it if they were going to have to wait so long? Why then did Jesus baptize with His disciples (cf. John 3:22)--or do you not think baptism has anything to do with rebirth (in which case, that would explain many differences)?

Have you even considered my post about Peter's conversion and my questions about the New Covenant? I will deal with all of your questions to me unless another member already covers it first. How about dealing with my questions to you?

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't address them as specifically as I meant to.

Your remarks about Peter would imply that Peter never again sinned. Why then would Paul have to correct Peter? Do born-again Christians never sin again? Or do their sins simply not have any consequences?

You are insisting that the regenerating work of the Spirit (rebirth, born of God, conversion) was given throughout the history of mankind, yet the scripture insist that it wasn't. How do you deal with this?

God is outside of time.

Yes, a very real change took place when the Spirit decended upon those in the upper room... but it was a change in man's relation to God, not in God's relation to man.

Otherwise, were the writers of the Old Testament not inspired? Were Jesus and the Holy Spirit entirely inactive throughout the entire Old Testament? That would be the logical conclusion of your premise...

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
John 6:66, I don't have any problem believing that they may be saved. Disciples turn away from the Lord every day. I turned away for a time, and it is only the Lord's mercy that brought me back, but I don't think that I wasn't saved, even though at the time I wasn't even sure if I still believed in God. If I had passed while in that state, I would have found myself at the judgment seat of Christ and received for my works just like it says.

I'm glad you found your way back.

However, as regards the disciples who left in this verse, the Bible leaves no room for their return. "no more" is pretty definite, don't you think?

Will you still maintain that those who "walked with the Lord no more" are saved? Can people walk away from the Lord--for the rest of their earthly life and still be saved?

 

[James_Newman]

You are going to have to figure out what fall away means. I think that there is a point where a child of God is so far gone that repentence is no longer possible. At such a time they would be no longer eligible for the inheritance. They would be cut off from the vine, as branches to be burned. What did 1Corinthians 3 say?
1 Corinthians 3:15-17
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

If a man were to be destroyed by God, does that mean that God cannot still raise him up again?

 

[Faith alone]

They were "disciples" - learners, who were following Christ... never says that they believed. In fact, it says that they did not believe - in context:

John 6:64-66 - "But there are some among you who don't believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning those who would not believe and the one who would betray Him.) He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father." From that moment many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

Hebrews 6 is referring to Christians. But it is not referring to losing your salvation but loss of rewards. It would take 2 or 3 very lengthy posts to make my point.

FA

 

[James_Newman]

I'm sure some of them didn't believe, but I doubt all of them did not. He said some among you, but many turned away. The problem is some believers will follow the many rather than the Lord.