OSAS1, OSAS2, or OSAS3

[drfuss]

There are a couple of threads on here where the OSAS believers are trying to give the retionale for believing in OSAS. It would be helpful if they would tell us which OSAS they are promoting. I started this new thread so as not to hyjack another thread.

OSAS1 - The 5-Point Calvinist belief in OSAS, sometimes called Perservence of the Saints. This belief is connected to Unconditional Election/ Irresistable Grace as its basis for OSAS or perservence.

OSAS2 - This belief says a True Christian will not (can not) stop believing; and therefore is assured of continued belief and will go to heaven. I think this is the most popular OSAS belief.

OSAS3 - This belief says a True Christian can stop believing, but even if he dies in unbelief, he will still go to heaven. The best known proponent of OSAS3 is Charley Stanley.

A distinction between OSAS2 and OSAS3 is important because they directly contradict each other in whether a True Christian can or will stop trusting in Christ.

So when you promote the doctrine of OSAS, please indicate which OSAS you are promoting. Also please indicate why you don't believe in the other versions of OSAS.

 

[annsni]

I don't understand the difference between 1 and 2 in practical terms.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann, just remember your a #1 even if most feel they are #10's:thumbs::tonofbricks:

 

[annsni]

Ann, just remember your a #1 even if most feel they are #10's:thumbs::tonofbricks:

LOL - I'm feeling like #100s today. :sleep:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Seriously one and two have no practical separation that I can see, if in fact #2 "cannot", and how could it be anything else than 'cannot' and be OSAS? I see your question as a valid one. :thumbsup:
We'll see what others might say.

 

[annsni]

Seriously one and two have no practical separation that I can see, if in fact #2 "cannot", and how could it be anything else than 'cannot' and be OSAS? I see your question as a valid one. :thumbsup:
We'll see what others might say.

That's what I'm thinking. There may be a philosophical difference but in practice, there really isn't any. But then again, this Topamax is doing wonders to my brain and I can't put two and two together sometimes. LOL

 

[drfuss]

Seriously one and two have no practical separation that I can see, if in fact #2 "cannot", and how could it be anything else than 'cannot' and be OSAS? I see your question as a valid one. :thumbsup:
We'll see what others might say.

From a practical perspective, I think OSAS1 and OSAS2 are about the same. However, they are justified differently. Since the OSAS Christians are giving OSAS rationale, I separated them since I think their rationale would be somewhat different. Hopefully, we will find out if their rationale is different or the same.

 

[Winman]

I don't hold to any of those, I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is very different from Perseverance.

In Perseverance, it is held that a person will persevere. The keep themselves saved by their perseverance and faithfulness. I consider this a form of works salvation. If you are obeying God you believe yourself saved, if you sin you doubt your salvation. You are looking at YOURSELF.

In Preservation you are kept by Jesus's faithfulness. Jesus promised that he would not cast out anyone who comes to him (John 6:37). I depend completely upon Jesus to keep his promise to me whether I am faithful to him or not. I am looking at Jesus, not myself.

Now, I'm not saying I just do whatever, I want to be faithful to Jesus. But truth is, oftentimes I am not. Praise God my salvation does not depend upon my own faithfulness to Jesus, but his faithfulness to me!

Some folks cannot distinguish between Preservation and Perseverance, but there is a HUGE difference.

 

[drfuss]

Osas4

I don't hold to any of those, I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is very different from Perseverance.

In Perseverance, it is held that a person will persevere. The keep themselves saved by their perseverance and faithfulness. I consider this a form of works salvation. If you are obeying God you believe yourself saved, if you sin you doubt your salvation. You are looking at YOURSELF.

In Preservation you are kept by Jesus's faithfulness. Jesus promised that he would not cast out anyone who comes to him (John 6:37). I depend completely upon Jesus to keep his promise to me whether I am faithful to him or not. I am looking at Jesus, not myself.

Now, I'm not saying I just do whatever, I want to be faithful to Jesus. But truth is, oftentimes I am not. Praise God my salvation does not depend upon my own faithfulness to Jesus, but his faithfulness to me!

Some folks cannot distinguish between Preservation and Perseverance, but there is a HUGE difference.

Okay, now we have OSAS4, Preservation of the Saints in accordance with Winman's definition.

 

[Winman]

Double post.

There are many folks who hold to Preservation of the Saints.

 

[annsni]

I don't hold to any of those, I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is very different from Perseverance.

In Perseverance, it is held that a person will persevere. The keep themselves saved by their perseverance and faithfulness. I consider this a form of works salvation. If you are obeying God you believe yourself saved, if you sin you doubt your salvation. You are looking at YOURSELF.

In Preservation you are kept by Jesus's faithfulness. Jesus promised that he would not cast out anyone who comes to him (John 6:37). I depend completely upon Jesus to keep his promise to me whether I am faithful to him or not. I am looking at Jesus, not myself.

Now, I'm not saying I just do whatever, I want to be faithful to Jesus. But truth is, oftentimes I am not. Praise God my salvation does not depend upon my own faithfulness to Jesus, but his faithfulness to me!

Some folks cannot distinguish between Preservation and Perseverance, but there is a HUGE difference.

I believe that this is what Perseverance of the Saints actually means - at least in my understanding it does. It is not about OUR keeping pure but God keeping us pure.

 

[Winman]

I believe that this is what Perseverance of the Saints actually means - at least in my understanding it does. It is not about OUR keeping pure but God keeping us pure.

Well, I certainly don't consider myself perfectly pure. I know all my sins are forgiven, but my daily walk is not pure, I sin quite often. I am not proud of this, I am ashamed. It is simply the truth.

It is not about me being faithful, though I desire to be faithful. If I must be perfectly faithful, then salvation becomes a work. I KNOW I wouldn't make it.

 

[annsni]

Well, I certainly don't consider myself perfectly pure. I know all my sins are forgiven, but my daily walk is not pure, I sin quite often. I am not proud of this, I am ashamed. It is simply the truth.

It is not about me being faithful, though I desire to be faithful. If I must be perfectly faithful, then salvation becomes a work. I KNOW I wouldn't make it.

Praise God for HIS faithfulness!!! Man, if it was up to me? I'd be on my way to hell just from today......:tear:

That which I don't want to do, I do .... I WISH I could change but that nasty ME keeps getting in the way.

 

[Winman]

Praise God for HIS faithfulness!!! Man, if it was up to me? I'd be on my way to hell just from today......:tear:

That which I don't want to do, I do .... I WISH I could change but that nasty ME keeps getting in the way.

Well, you seem to agree with my view. I am also glad that Jesus is faithful.

However, I do not believe this is perseverance. I am not persevering. I am kept.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Peter did not persevere very well, just a few hours after this prayer he denied the Lord three times.

Perseverance and preservation are not the same thing.

 

[steaver]

There are a couple of threads on here where the OSAS believers are trying to give the retionale for believing in OSAS. It would be helpful if they would tell us which OSAS they are promoting. I started this new thread so as not to hyjack another thread.

OSAS1 - The 5-Point Calvinist belief in OSAS, sometimes called Perservence of the Saints. This belief is connected to Unconditional Election/ Irresistable Grace as its basis for OSAS or perservence.

OSAS2 - This belief says a True Christian will not (can not) stop believing; and therefore is assured of continued belief and will go to heaven. I think this is the most popular OSAS belief.

OSAS3 - This belief says a True Christian can stop believing, but even if he dies in unbelief, he will still go to heaven. The best known proponent of OSAS3 is Charley Stanley.

A distinction between OSAS2 and OSAS3 is important because they directly contradict each other in whether a True Christian can or will stop trusting in Christ.

So when you promote the doctrine of OSAS, please indicate which OSAS you are promoting. Also please indicate why you don't believe in the other versions of OSAS.

There are no multipul versions to understand. OSAS is defined in itself. The issue is "saved", and nothing more or less. It has nothing to do with the 5 points of Calvinism, nor any flawed theology that one can stop believing in that which they have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth.

When one is saved according to the bible's definition of saved, then they are saved forever according to the bible's teaching on the saved. You can talk about backsliding, and unconfessed sins, and faithlessness, etc, but these are all seperate issues apart from having anything to do with the sufficiency of God to keep one saved and secured in Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, you seem to agree with my view. I am also glad that Jesus is faithful.

However, I do not believe this is perseverance. I am not persevering. I am kept.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Peter did not persevere very well, just a few hours after this prayer he denied the Lord three times.

Perseverance and preservation are not the same thing.

I agree!:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

An analogy to show the difference between perseverance and preservation might be putting money in the bank. You depend upon the bank to keep the money safely for you. This is preservation.

If you stood outside the bank with a rifle to make sure no one robbed it, that would be perseverance.

Preservation means to trust your soul into Jesus's hands and depend upon him to keep it for you. He does not need your help.

 

[annsni]

Well, you seem to agree with my view. I am also glad that Jesus is faithful.

However, I do not believe this is perseverance. I am not persevering. I am kept.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Peter did not persevere very well, just a few hours after this prayer he denied the Lord three times.

Perseverance and preservation are not the same thing.

I don't know why the term "perseverance" was chosen but I do agree that "preservation" is the better term.

 

[Amy.G]

However, I do not believe this is perseverance. I am not persevering. I am kept.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Peter did not persevere very well, just a few hours after this prayer he denied the Lord three times.

Perseverance and preservation are not the same thing.

Good post. And I agree with Ann as well. To persevere implies I am kept by my own power, which of course I cannot do.

 

[Winman]

I don't know why the term "perseverance" was chosen but I do agree that "preservation" is the better term.

Well, they are really quite different. Here is a good article on the difference between Preservation and Perseverance of the Saints.

http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2010/10/perseverance-versus-preservation-by-dr.html