OT Existence of the Church

[JesusFan]

Dr Bob, as I see it, the distinction between Israel and the church was made in the abrahmic promise that he would become a mighty nation and be a blessings to all the nations through his seed.

The one Kingdom of God (at the end of the day) being comprised of Redeemed Israel and the Church of the Firstborn.

I believe this distinction is carried through to the Book of Revelation (Chapter 21) where by metaphor a distinction is made between Israel and the church. i.e. The twelve Gates and the twelve Foundations.

Though distinct they will live forever as one body in the New Jerusalem.

HankD

So is it that the Abrahamiac Covenant continues with Isreal today, Church under New Covenant?
is it NewCovenant has the Abraramiac Covenant "folded into it?"

is it Abrahamiac Covenant and Noah etc are ALL included in new Covenant?

Thought that the new Covenant superceded ALL prior covenants between God and man, or else included ALL prior covenant provisions within it?

 

[HankD]

So is it that the Abrahamiac Covenant continues with Isreal today, Church under New Covenant?
is it NewCovenant has the Abraramiac Covenant "folded into it?"

is it Abrahamiac Covenant and Noah etc are ALL included in new Covenant?

Thought that the new Covenant superceded ALL prior covenants between God and man, or else included ALL prior covenant provisions within it?

As I see it, Israel as a nation is temporarily set aside "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".

In the meantime, individual Jews come into the church in the same manner as Gentiles, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and are and will always be members of the church.​

When the times of the Gentiles are fullfilled, the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation (post "harpazo") are sealed and are the beginnings of redeemed Israel and are not part of the "Old Covenant" which Israel broke but now come under the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 which (yes, presumably) the Gentiles have already entered into at the preaching of the apostles (primarily Paul) as recorded in the Book of Acts.

Those peoples who preceded the abrahamic promise are somewhat problematic. My sense is that saved of the line of Seth will definitely be included in redeemed Israel, the rest are Gentiles and I don't know where the saved among them fit into this schema, but if I had to guess they would also be part of redeemed Israel by adoption.


HankD

 

[JesusFan]

As I see it, Israel as a nation is temporarily set aside "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".

In the meantime, individual Jews come into the church in the same manner as Gentiles, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and are and will always be members of the church.​

When the times of the Gentiles are fullfilled, the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation (post "harpazo") are sealed and are the beginnings of redeemed Israel and are not part of the "Old Covenant" which Israel broke but now come under the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 which (yes, presumably) the Gentiles have already entered into at the preaching of the apostles (primarily Paul) as recorded in the Book of Acts.

Those peoples who preceded the abrahamic promise are somewhat problematic. My sense is that saved of the line of Seth will definitely be included in redeemed Israel, the rest are Gentiles and I don't know where the saved among them fit into this schema, but if I had to guess they would also be part of redeemed Israel by adoption.


HankD

Thanks

this is where i believe those who hold to Covenant theology in this area have big problems...

trying to say that Church rreplaced/superceded all of the OT promises of God to Isreal, as they try to "fit" gentiles in under Abrahmiac Covenant , while we were grafted in under the new Covenant!

isreal and Church still 2 seperate entities in plans/purposes of God...

 

[J.D.]

So is it that the Abrahamiac Covenant continues with Isreal today, Church under New Covenant?
is it NewCovenant has the Abraramiac Covenant "folded into it?"

is it Abrahamiac Covenant and Noah etc are ALL included in new Covenant?

Thought that the new Covenant superceded ALL prior covenants between God and man, or else included ALL prior covenant provisions within it?

The New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Covenant of Grace (Gen 3:15). It supercedes only the "old covenant", which is the Mosaic/Law/National Covenant.

 

[J.D.]

As I see it, Israel as a nation is temporarily set aside "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".

In the meantime, individual Jews come into the church in the same manner as Gentiles, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and are and will always be members of the church.​

When the times of the Gentiles are fullfilled, the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation (post "harpazo") are sealed and are the beginnings of redeemed Israel and are not part of the "Old Covenant" which Israel broke but now come under the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 which (yes, presumably) the Gentiles have already entered into at the preaching of the apostles (primarily Paul) as recorded in the Book of Acts.

Those peoples who preceded the abrahamic promise are somewhat problematic. My sense is that saved of the line of Seth will definitely be included in redeemed Israel, the rest are Gentiles and I don't know where the saved among them fit into this schema, but if I had to guess they would also be part of redeemed Israel by adoption.


HankD

There is no problem at all with the people that preceded Abraham. God promised to redeem his people beginning in Genesis 3:15. God has always saved His people, before Israel and after Israel. Israel is a paranthesis in historical redemption.

 

[JesusFan]

The New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Covenant of Grace (Gen 3:15). It supercedes only the "old covenant", which is the Mosaic/Law/National Covenant.

Are you then saying that the Gospel was in the OT?
isn't it a "brand new" wineskin thing, totally new Covenant between God and man?

 

[J.D.]

Are you then saying that the Gospel was in the OT?
isn't it a "brand new" wineskin thing, totally new Covenant between God and man?

Yes the Gospel was in the OT, the NT says so.

"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." (Gal 3:8)

The NEW COVENANT is NEW WINESKIN in relation to the OLD COVENANT (Mosaic Israel), but the Gospel is not the NC itself, but is an element of it. The gospel varies in detail from OT to NT, but it is present in basic form even in Genesis (3:15).

 

[HankD]

There is no problem at all with the people that preceded Abraham. God promised to redeem his people beginning in Genesis 3:15. God has always saved His people, before Israel and after Israel. Israel is a paranthesis in historical redemption.

True, though the promise had not yet been made to Abraham (not yet having been born), it was foreshadowed by Genesis 3:15.

Thanks
HankD

 

[Jim1999]

I don't think that Israel was parenthetical. I believe it was the forerunner of the church...the Israel of God.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[glfredrick]

I don't think that Israel was parenthetical. I believe it was the forerunner of the church...the Israel of God.

Cheers,

Jim

Except that the Word says that the church was "grafted in" to Israel, I could almost agree with you. The system of either dispensationalism and covenant theology are both flawed in that neither adequately deals with both Israel and the church in the manner found in Scripture.

Time for a new perspective...

 

[J.D.]

I don't think that Israel was parenthetical. I believe it was the forerunner of the church...the Israel of God.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, you are absolutely correct! I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that. You win the prize.

Another way to put it is that Israel, that is, the Old Covenant under Moses, was a continuation of redemptive history, not a parethesis to it.

I put that parenthesis comment in intentionally to see if it would goad any of the "the church is a parenthesis" crowd.

 

[JesusFan]

Jim, you are absolutely correct! I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that. You win the prize.

Another way to put it is that Israel, that is, the Old Covenant under Moses, was a continuation of redemptive history, not a parethesis to it.

I put that parenthesis comment in intentionally to see if it would goad any of the "the church is a parenthesis" crowd.

You are not saying here though that OT Isreal same as NT Church to God, are you?

 

[HankD]

Is anything with God parenthetical?

HankD

 

[amthomp17]

I don't believe in the universal church. It is not taught in the bible as far as I know.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't believe in the universal church. It is not taught in the bible as far as I know.

Depends on your definition of term...

I take it to be referring to Body of Christ ALL those saved since pentecost..

On Earth, is Invisible/Visible Church, with saved peoples being in Universal Church, not saved attending/members of a church building...

 

[HankD]

I don't believe in the universal church. It is not taught in the bible as far as I know.

Perhaps It might...

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

All manuscripts show "church - ekklesia" as singular.

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

Perhaps It might...

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

All manuscripts show "church - ekklesia" as singular.

HankD​

that would indeed be the "Universal Church" entire body/bride of Christ...