OT Law

What does assembling together have to do with the Sabbath law. There is no evidence that the early church assembled on the Sabbath days (or Sunday) specially. They assembled whenever they could and it had nothing to do with the day of rest.

 

I think they did worship on the Sabbath. Man, all the excuses people make to try and justify not keeping the Sabbath Holy. Weird!

 

Do you keep the Sabbath as is seen in the Bible?

 

I keep Sabbath as I understand it. What about you?

 

Let me ask you, do you also "keep Sunday", just as the Sabbath? I know that you have service on both days. Do you hold that both days are holy?

 

As I stated at the beginning it stated the 7th day. I believe God expects us to keep one day a week as the Sabbath. I know where you are heading and I don't intend to go there. In the first place, I don't think you believe that Commandment is still binding so why should I debate someone that don't even believe in any day as the Sabbath. I have discussed this Sabbath day thing with others and among them Bob Ryan of which He is pretty well informed on the subject. He knows we use Saturday and Sunday as days of worship and he seemed to be pretty well satisfied. I am covering all bases, if you know what I mean. I don't intend on letting you pin me down on a certain day of the week.

God seems to accept what the churches have practiced all these years so I guess we just keep on keeping on.

 

Bob,

In the 1st place Bob Ryan, is Seven Day Adventist, so yes he believes in works based gospel. What Bob Ryan has to say, has nothing to do with the Baptist threads. Bob Ryan is pretty well informed on the subject of Seven Day Adventist doctrine. My views should not have anything to do with what I asked you. But just to be clear, I think a believer should follow all of Gods commandments, not just the 10.

You said...

I asked if you kept the Sabbath as seen in the Bible....for you thought it was weird others did not. Being that the Sabbath is not Sunday, and being you also worship on Sunday, I was just seeing if you keep both days as seen in the Bible. So I'll make it easy.

Here is a list from Sabbath Day worshippers....

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/keeping_it_holy.asp

Do you apply this list to both the Sabbath and Sunday? That is what I'm asking.

 

The Commandment is to Keep the Sabbath Holy.

I guess we all have what we consider to keeping it Holy and follow most if not all of what you have posted.

I know Bob Ryan is an SDA but I still like Him and agree with him on a lot of things and disagree with him on others. Like you

and I do.

We do the best we can to serve the Lord James and that is to keep the Sabbath Holy. I will be honest and tell you I feel that

Sunday is the Sabbath according to us but know we can get into calendars and come up with Saturday. I guess every day is

the Lord's day as far as that goes but I do try and do what the scripture says to do on the Sabbath of which I hold to Sunday

even though we go to church on Saturday also. On Sat. if I have some work to do when I get home I do it but on Sunday, I

rest unless it is an emergency. I hope I answered your questions. You misread me thinking it is wierd. What I meant when I

said I think it is wierd, it the difference ways people try to get out of keeping the Sabbath. You always seem to hunt out a

word of mine and lead it to the farthest extent possible to make it look bad. You need to show a little more feelings toward

your fellow man James instead of always being confrontable with everyone. I notice since we have not been debating that you

have been into it with the others. I guess you think maybe it time for you and I to go at it again.

 

I believe what changed is the motive....

We no longer love the Lord our God to be saved, we Love the Lord our God because we are saved. Part of that salvation process gave us a heart and mind to Love our God. Now we can't help but Love God.

In OT times the laws were observed as a means of being righteous and living holy. Now we live holy and are righteous, not our righteousness but the imputed righteousness of Christ because we are saved. Same ends but different means or motives to get there.

 

Hello Bob,

No need to fight at all Bob. I have no hard feelings in anything you have said to me. I hope you are not holding on to things. This is only a debate board, so no need to take anything personal.

One reason I pushed you on this was this one short line.."Man, all the excuses people make to try and justify not keeping the Sabbath Holy. Weird!". But as you just said above in your last post, we all must set our own standards as we see the Bible. The list that was given above was more then just working on the house, but cooking also. All of these apply to Sat. and not Sunday....if one were to "keep the Sabbath".

I really don't want to fight with you over which day, but I think Sunday is the day I set aside. Sunday is not the Sabbath. Christ was the Sabbath.

But this is where I was going with this. When it comes to the "law" it is stated ...

Its not only the seventh DAY that is set as holy. This is only part of that commandment. Those that hold to "keeping the Sabbath" never talk about the rest of the commandment. We are to labor six days, not 5. If you do not work 6 days a week, you are breaking this commandment, if in fact this is talking about keeping days.


What do you think?


In Christ...James

 

John 14:12-18, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

We are not Israel, i.e. we have not taken their place. God will again recognize them, after the "rapture", for He is coming back in His wrath for them.

I believe we must keep all sayings in context. We notice Jesus is talking to His Apostles. There is not a Gentile in the group, for Jesus said He came only for His own. We know we can't just ask in His name and it will be done. Today it is not our will be done, but His.

We are also to note here, Jesus says nothing about the LAW, or the Ordinances, or the Prophets. He came to fulfill the Law, and prophecy. So what are His commandments here He tells His Apostles? Some here may have already testified to this. He tells of a new commandment in John 13:34, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." This will cover the law connected with the first greatest commandment as shown in Matthew 22:37-40 to Love God with all our heart, soul, and mind.

Paul tells us we are in the Body of Christ and dead to the Law and Jesus Christ fulfilled all of the Law. In Him we are to "love one another", and I see it says nothing about our loving everybody in the world. That is His Job. We have enough problems trying to love one another, we that are in Him.

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Before Damascus Road all from the beginning were justified by faith, and we find this so in Hebrews 11. The Law has always been, even before God gave it to be Moses' Law.
In this we can find the "Kingdom Church", for God had "hidden" His purpose from the beginning, as had man known, they would not have crucified my Lord - I Corinthians 2:8. Galatians above says Justification "by faith will bring us to Christ".

We are so blessed today in this "dispensation" we are allowed to live in. Today, for yesterday is gone and tomorrow is not in view, we are at this time justified through faith, and this justification cannot be found before Damascus Road.

The Sabbath? As previously said above we are not Israel today. The Sabbath is in the covenant Israel made with God. God never asks any of us to observe this Holy Day. If we do, do we not put ourselves back under the law? Exodus 31:14, "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you." We know the Sabbath is not for us for we walk by faith and not by sight. His Word tells us His people look for a sign, and we know they need more than one sign for they missed the sign of Messiah.

The "Body Church" is of the first day of the week for now, all things are new. We are not to try and hold on to that "old cloth". Are we bound and tied and forced to go to church every Sunday, any certain amount of time during the year? Some go regularly, some do not go at all, and some go sometime. I cannot find where a Gentile is told do this. We can't use Hebrews, for we know this Book is written to the Hebrew people. But even to those considering themselves to be of Jewish Faith are not "commanded" to do so.

 

I think you say you pushed me over saying .."Man, all the excuses people make to try and justify not keeping the Sabbath Holy. Weird!", and then you come back with keeping the Sabbath, I must work 6 days a week. It don't matter that I have had my chest sawed in two a couple of times just to begin with. Lets talk about others who have lost their limbs for example but still you say for them to keep the Sabbath, they must work six days a week, not five but six. Now James, you just made my point "weird weird weird" big time. Enough said, you have completely shown my statement of weird to be true.

 

Hebrew 10:

23: Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24: And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Act 13:42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

If you don't want to call it the Sabbath that is up to you but you still have not excuse not to assembly yourselves together.

 

The Sabbath for me is Christ. To you its a day. There are 7 days talked about in the commandment. I just wanted to know if you kept the whole commandment or only part of it. I added nothing to the text. The text does say "6 days shall thy work". I just asked if you kept it all. What is so weird about that? Should I not have asked this?

Your answer was..."part of it". I'm not going to call you wrong. I'm not going to call you weird. That was all I wanted to know. End of story.

 

Are we not enlightened as the Christians take collection for those Saints in Jerusalem? I Corinthians 16:2, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Is there Israel today in the sight of God, and is He dealing directly with them as He talked to them in the past? He talks to them then, today through the 4 gospels, and the book of Acts, Hebrews, James, 1st and 2nd Peter, and the 3 Books of John, then Jude, on to Revelation, and again in the "Tribulation period". These are the "Kingdom Church" books of the Bible. But John was allowed to "tarry", writing His Books some 30 years after Paul, and we see he John can now reveal what Jesus said on earth, but no one knew what Jesus was talking about. Not until after Damascus Road and the preaching of Paul, and His writings, could anyone understand what God had hidden. John can now write all of His Books for He has full understanding, for the Jew and the Gentile.

The "Body Church" books of the Bible, which God speaks to all of us, are Acts and the 13 Epistles of Paul.

First Damascus Road, then God allowed Peter to be the first recorded instance of how the Gentile is saved, which is shown in Acts 10. The purpose is in order for the gospel of Paul to be accepted first by the Jew (validated by Peter's first and only presentation of the gospel of Paul), to a Gentile. God placed "Book Ends" to hold the Epistles of Paul. First Peter at the beginning, and John tarrying at the End, propping up the letters of Paul so they will stand; then God last speaking to His beloved Disciple John to close the Word of God as He speaks to us today. After our "Rapture" He will speak directly to them again, and take them as His Own, just as He says He will. We in the Bridegroom will be with Him.

 

But it says the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
This shows, does it not that the Gentiles indeed knew of the Sabbath and were waiting on the next one?

Don't you believe the 4 Gospels and Acts, Hebrews, James 1st and 2nd Peter, 3 books of John and Jude were written for our learning also. If not then how we even know who Jesus is or that He died for the sin of the world, etc? The Church of Christ don't accept the 4 Gospels but I didn't know some didn't accept the other books also! Don't you think, when it said the "law and prophets were until John, since then the Kingdom of Heaven is being preached, it meant all of us? Also, because it says they were until John, does not mean they ended there but now we have them plus the Kingdom of Heaven is how I take it. All preach the Prophets, but some refuse to preach the Law. I wonder why?

 

Matt.05

17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Romans, chapter 8
"4": That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"5": For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

"6": For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

"7": Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

"8": So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

"9": But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

"10": And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

"11": But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"12": Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

"13": For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

"14": For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with the practice today of passing the plate in Sunday worship services. Notice the whole context:

This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with a continual practice or command to the New Testament church throughout history. This is a specific order by Paul to (at least) the churches of Corinth and Galatia about a specific problem (famine?) going on in Jerusalem. As Paul was a traveling missionary, he gave instructions to several churches on how to help out in this situation. Rather than having him show up and and ask the unprepared congregations to give "off the cuff" ("gatherings when I come") for this need, he told them ahead of time in a letter to set aside a certain portion by him (NOT in a coffer) the first day of the week (likely when everyone received his wages). When Paul did come (whatever day that was), everyone would be prepared to give, and give generously.

This was "a collection for the saints (not elders or church building)" in Jerusalem by churches in Galatia and Corinth. This passage does not support the modern church "tithing" myth as some try to claim.

 

Dear Brother In Christ we do have here a conundrum for this brings up the "Kingdom Church", and the "Body Church". To keep in context we must go back to verse 42. "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

To preach the Cross of Christ Jesus to lost Israel, Paul has to go to where they are, i.e. the Jewish Synagogues, and they had a Holy Day every week and that Day was always the last day of the week, Saturday, and they called it the Sabbath Day.

At this time in the Jewish Synagogues were also those that accepted Messiah, and those that didn't. After the stoning of Steven, and the conversion of Saul/Paul on Damascus Road, the persecution of those in the Pentecostal church stopped. The chief sinner and tormentor of the Apostolic Pentecostal church had a change of heart, and there were none to take up the mantle to continue to kill, and jail those that believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

The gospel is to go to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile's. What day do the Jew's hold Holy? The Sabbath is the day that God gave to them, so this is when Paul preached to them, and Gentiles went there also looking for God. I am not among that group, unless I join the "Kingdom Church". I am in the "Body Church" by the grace of God through the faith of my Lord Jesus Christ.

There is very important information found in verse 43 above. Those saved into the "Kingdom Church" in that day while the Temple still stood, and those Jew's, and the religious proselytes justified by faith, were to continue in the "circumcision gospel", and continue to make blood sacrifice, and keeping the law of ordinances. Those justified by faith have accepted the promises made to Israel. They are not to change for they are in "covenant" with God.

I personally believe today we have the majority being justified by faith, for they do not really believe the gospel of Paul. They speak of the "great commission", which is the same gospel we see in Acts 2:38 that Peter preaches of "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins". If we say we are preaching the "great commission", and we do baptize, even though we do not believe it necessary for our salvation, we have said we do believe the gospel is as before, and we believe the gospel that Peter preached, and that gospel is the "great commission".

There are two foundations to build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. Please show me where His Word is wrong.

Amen Brother Bob. I believe all of the Bible but all of it cannot and does not apply to us today. It is for our learning and is" profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". We are to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".

Are you "circumcised, making blood sacrifices today? Where is the Temple, and where is the High Priest to enter the Most Holy Place to shed the blood of the animal to hold us for one more year? I find this gospel is not written to me, so in knowing it is written for my understanding, I do understand it, and in understanding I know I must look elsewhere to find what is written to me.

I believe the "why" is they "straddle" the two buildings built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. Jesus fulfilled what the Prophets prophesied of Him, and Jesus fulfilled the Law. We preach Jesus raised, therefore we are dead to the law, so why would we preach it? But those that say they are still preaching the "great commission", are preaching the "Kingdom Church", for that is the gospel that Jesus preached while he was still man, and still on this earth, and what was to be preached after He left. That gospel was that the "kingdom of heaven was at hand", and it was, but Israel did not accept Messiah, so that "kingdom of heaven" could not come. So until Damascus Road when Christ chose His heavenly Apostle, revealing to Paul the "Body Church", and those that enter are justified through faith, will not enter the kingdom as those justified by faith. I build on the foundation that Paul laid down on the foundation of Jesus Christ. I will be in that "kingdom to come", but I first go into the "Body Church".