OT law

[freeatlast]

I generally use the New American Standard translation.

The words in the Greek are: ἅπασαν μακροθυμίαν:

"Apasan" is from "apas" meaning "as expressing the totality of any object. "all"...."the whole"....

So, whereas the King James may have translated this word as "all", the NAS translates as "perfect".

"Makrothumian" is from "Makrothumia" meaning "as a state of emotional quietness in the face of unfavorable circumstances... patience... longsuffering... (2) as constraint exercised toward others...forbearance, patience....

(Both definitions from Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Friberg, Friberg, Miller, Baker Books, 2000 pp 61 and 252 respectively)

So the translation could be very literally "all patience" or "whole longsuffering" or "all forebearance". I don't believe rendering the passage "perfect patience" adds anything to the words of scripture, however, there is no doubt about the word translated "patience". It certainly has that meaning in the context. Call it "all patience" if you like. It doesn't change the meaning at all.

The passage (I Tim. 1:16) is clear as to what our attitudes towards the worst of sinners should be. It should be the same attitude that Jesus had toward Paul. Support for the death penalty is contrary to the example Jesus gave to us to follow.No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying we don't put them to death. That demonstrates mercy and patience. Putting them in prison for life will protect our communities and families, which I support, which is a responsibility for our governments.That is a conclusion that I don't share with you.

First, I don't base my beliefs concerning appropriate punishment for criminals solely on these scriptures that I have given, though they are quite clear in what they teach... Christians should not support the death penalty.

But the appropriate penalties for various crimes is another subject. Perhaps another thread?

BTW, you appear to be saying that we should continue the death penalty as punishment for the crimes prohibited by God at the time of Moses and identified in the O.T. Law.

Is that what you believe?

peace to youraying:

Like I said the greek does not support perfect patience. But even if it did your hermeneutics is flawed. They have to be let go if you follow perfect patience as you put it. That is the example you are using from the text. They were all let go in the text. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[canadyjd]

Like I said the greek does not support perfect patience.

And so we disagree. There is no difference between rendering the phrase "all patience" or "perfect patience". The result is the same.

But even if it did your hermeneutics is flawed.

The context is clear, even if you can't (refuse) to see it.

I see you didn't answer my question. I'll give it another try. Do you believe we should return to the death penalty for the offenses described in the O.T. Law?

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

And so we disagree. There is no difference between rendering the phrase "all patience" or "perfect patience". The result is the same. The context is clear, even if you can't (refuse) to see it.

I see you didn't answer my question. I'll give it another try. Do you believe we should return to the death penalty for the offenses described in the O.T. Law?

peace to youraying:

Sorry about the question, I simply missed it. As to your question the answer is yes except in those cases where the law has been fulfilled such as Sabbath laws. By the way at one time we did follow most of them, but I am afraid that our current God hating post modern society has taken control and we no longer follow them. We are told this would come and it is here.
Now that leaves me with a question. If you lived during the time of the law would you obey and support the death penalty for all the reasons given in scripture?

 

[canadyjd]

..... the answer is yes except in those cases where the law has been fulfilled such as Sabbath laws.

Don't you believe the Law has been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ?

Now that leaves me with a question. If you lived during the time of the law would you obey and support the death penalty for all the reasons given in scripture?

I simply don't know. It is impossible to say how I would respond absent Holy Spirit in my life. Holy Spirit wasn't given then. Jesus hadn't yet changed the conditions for implementing the death penalty. I thank God I don't live under the O.T. Laws.

I supported the death penalty for many years. A careful study of scripture has changed my mind.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

Don't you believe the Law has been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ?I simply don't know. It is impossible to say how I would respond absent Holy Spirit in my life. Holy Spirit wasn't given then. Jesus hadn't yet changed the conditions for implementing the death penalty. I thank God I don't live under the O.T. Laws.

I supported the death penalty for many years. A careful study of scripture has changed my mind.

peace to youraying:

Fulfilling the law does not mean it is done away with. Jesus made that clear when He said that He did not come to destroy it but to fulfill it. The fulfilling of the law that He fulfilled was His coming and dying for our sins, not the doing away with God's commands and precepts. God has not changed nor has His law.
As for you not knowing if you would obey, it has nothing to do with the idea that the Spirit had not been given yet. The OT was full of those who loved and obeyed the Lord. Just read the Psalms. The problem with a person not knowing or even refusing to obey is about their relationship with God. They are either for Him or against Him. There is and has never been any middle ground. To be undecided is just as against Him as clearly stating such. You say that you thank God that you do not have to live under the Law. WHY? Do you feel that God's law was unjust? Do you feel He was harsh under the old covenant? I am just curious.

 

[canadyjd]

Fulfilling the law does not mean it is done away with.....not the doing away with God's commands and precepts. God has not changed nor has His law.

You are simply wrong.

Gal. 3:19 "Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions....until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made"

Notice the phrase "until the seed would come". This clearly states the Law was temporary.. until Jesus Christ came.

Gal. 3:24-25 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ.....(25)But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Notice that we are no longer "under a tutor", that means we are no longer under the Law.

...You say that you thank God that you do not have to live under the Law. WHY? Do you feel that God's law was unjust? Do you feel He was harsh under the old covenant? I am just curious.

The Law only condemned, it did not save anyone. That was not its purpose.

I don't feel God's Law was unjust. Quite the contrary, it was perfectly just. And yes, it was "harsh" as human beings see it, because God demands perfection. I know I wouldn't be able to keep it. If I had lived in the O.T. times as I have lived my life, I would have been stoned to death by the time I was 25.

I thank God that He showed mercy to me by allowing me to live in the age of grace and faith.

I am curious. You sound as if you would prefer to live under the O.T. Law. Is that true?

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

You are simply wrong.

Gal. 3:19 "Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions....until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made"

Notice the phrase "until the seed would come". This clearly states the Law was temporary.. until Jesus Christ came.

Gal. 3:24-25 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ.....(25)But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Notice that we are no longer "under a tutor", that means we are no longer under the Law.The Law only condemned, it did not save anyone. That was not its purpose.

I don't feel God's Law was unjust. Quite the contrary, it was perfectly just. And yes, it was "harsh" as human beings see it, because God demands perfection. I know I wouldn't be able to keep it. If I had lived in the O.T. times as I have lived my life, I would have been stoned to death by the time I was 25.

I thank God that He showed mercy to me by allowing me to live in the age of grace and faith.

I am curious. You sound as if you would prefer to live under the O.T. Law. Is that true?

peace to youraying:

I live under grace and within the laws commands. While the law never saved, the true believer is one who keeps those commands. Not being under the laws jurisdiction does not release me from its morality. As a matter of fact my salvation validates the law of God through my seeking obediance to it. So no the law was never harsh even from a humans perspective. David loved the law and mediated on it day and night and was called a man after God's heart. Salvation has always been by grace through faith even under the OT. The obediance to God's commands shows that faith is real and that salvation has taken place. If a person is not keeping the commandments and says he knows God he is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4 Also they do not love the Lord. John 14:15
The law of God for the true believer is his delight sought after out of love for His Lord.