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OT Prophecies applied to gospel age, the Church

agedman

Well-Known Member
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Now, God fulfilled his promises and Israel got it all as I have already quoted from Josh. 21:43-45 and 23:14-16. That was another point I had been taught that Scripture contradicted, that some promises of land remained for Israel to possess. Another is that Jesus is to sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem in our future. Peter said David spoke of the resurrection as I pointed out in Acts 2. I'm still waiting to hear why the Scripture does not mean just what it states there.


Then dispute the issue with Romans 11.

Paul clearly states that God is NOT through with the political/social group called Israel, but will in the future join all believers to that group.

That is what "grafted into" means. The tree was not destroyed, but modified by the graft.

Your waiting on Acts 2 is answered in Romans 11.

The opening verses of the chapter refute your assumption:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Perhaps you can render it in some other way that what Paul states throughout Romans 11.

But, I would rather trust Paul who not only was inspired, but quoted OT prophet(s) for support of his statement as to the future of Israel.
 

Edward63

Member
Then dispute the issue with Romans 11.

Paul clearly states that God is NOT through with the political/social group called Israel, but will in the future join all believers to that group.

That is what "grafted into" means. The tree was not destroyed, but modified by the graft.

Your waiting on Acts 2 is answered in Romans 11.

The opening verses of the chapter refute your assumption:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Perhaps you can render it in some other way that what Paul states throughout Romans 11.

But, I would rather trust Paul who not only was inspired, but quoted OT prophet(s) for support of his statement as to the future of Israel.

“I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” (Ro 11:1-5 ASV)

Nothing about the future to us in 2013 there. The entire chapter Paul is speaking future to him, not us. Jews have been coming into the church all through the centuries. Will they be converted to Christ in large numbers yet in our future, possibly, some in the past have believed that. But, there is absolutely nothing in this chapter to support a new State of Israel with Temple, Sacrifices or a Throne. Now, your answer to Acts 2:29-35 is a NON-ANSWER, so I assume you have no more an answer than the supposed experts in Dispensationalism do. Now, it appears to me the Olive Tree is God's people, God's family. Like a parable, you can't press the details. The Jews were branches broken off and wild branches grafted into God's people which is the church of Christ, the body of Christ now.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
“I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” (Ro 11:1-5 ASV)

Nothing about the future to us in 2013 there. The entire chapter Paul is speaking future to him, not us. Jews have been coming into the church all through the centuries. Will they be converted to Christ in large numbers yet in our future, possibly, some in the past have believed that. But, there is absolutely nothing in this chapter to support a new State of Israel with Temple, Sacrifices or a Throne. Now, your answer to Acts 2:29-35 is a NON-ANSWER, so I assume you have no more an answer than the supposed experts in Dispensationalism do. Now, it appears to me the Olive Tree is God's people, God's family. Like a parable, you can't press the details. The Jews were branches broken off and wild branches grafted into God's people which is the church of Christ, the body of Christ now.


Really? I suppose that what Paul said doesn't apply if you refuse to read it.
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
The "partial hardening" will be lifted AFTER the time of the Gentiles. When is that time? THE Millennium.


Of course in the covenant scheme they generalize and disallow the millennium to the point it doesn't exist as it is in Scripture.

So, to a group, that doesn't take the Scriptures literally in this matter, it isn't worth any more of my time.

Generally the folks of this group have shown to be incapable of recognizing the above passage as God bringing Israel - ALL Israel - to repentance and belief in the future.
 

michael-acts17:11

Member
Site Supporter
Then dispute the issue with Romans 11.

Paul clearly states that God is NOT through with the political/social group called Israel, but will in the future join all believers to that group.

That is what "grafted into" means. The tree was not destroyed, but modified by the graft.

Your waiting on Acts 2 is answered in Romans 11.

The opening verses of the chapter refute your assumption:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Perhaps you can render it in some other way that what Paul states throughout Romans 11.

But, I would rather trust Paul who not only was inspired, but quoted OT prophet(s) for support of his statement as to the future of Israel.

Who are His people that are not rejected? For over 2,000yrs He has rejected every Jew who does not come to Him via the Messiah. Millions, if not billions, of Jews are in hell. Where is their salvation as God's special people? You say He's not through with political/social Israel. What does that mean in relation to salvation? Will God accept unbelieving Jews just because they have some speck of Abraham's blood in their veins? Who EXACTLY has He not rejected? Are the Jews of the past 2,000yrs being held in "Abraham's bosom" until the reestablishment of the Old Law?

I was taught that nonsense for the first twenty-something years of my life. I studied the New Covenant at a Bible college that believed that nonsense. It didn't take long for me to see the incredible foolishness of the belief that God has two separate people & that He would "pause" the eternal New Covenant in order to bring back the fulfilled Law of works & animal sacrifices for a brief period of time. All of this to give land & power to a people who would mostly reject Him & go to hell. That is the insanity of futurism.

Every believing Jew is a part of the true Israel through Christ that will be saved. This truth is irrefutably stated in Scripture. Unbelieving Jews are NOT counted for the seed of Abraham. This is another irrefutable truth that lays waste to the notion that physical descendants of Abraham are owed promises of the Father. Besides, Scripture states that ALL promises to the nation of Israel were fulfilled, just like the old Law. And yet dispensationalists constantly proclaim them both to be unfulfilled; that the nation of Israel needs something more than Christ...earthly land & power over other peoples. That is madness!!

ALL Israel will be saved. Well, billions of Abraham's descendants are in hell for unbelief, so that obviously is not referring to the nation of Israel. I just wish there was another way for that passage to be correct. I wonder if there is another Israel made up only of believers, so that "all of Israel" will be saved. We know God cannot lie & that His Word is true. Therefore, since the application of "All Israel" cannot be referring to the physical descendants of Abraham, for God says they are not counted as the seed (that means they will not all be saved), then we must look in Scripture for the 100% fulfillment of that passage. Believe me, it is there. Some just choose to ignore it. Dispensationalism requires one to twist Scripture to the point of absurdity in order fit that ideology into the pages of Scripture.
 
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michael-acts17:11

Member
Site Supporter
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. (Galations 2:16-18)

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (Romans 3:20-24)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(Romans 11:26-27)

These passage annihilate the futurist position. SO many more could be listed. The "all Israel", which futurists somehow apply to a tiny minority of genetic Israelites over the Centuries, must come to God through faith in Christ; not through a temporal kingdom with a resurrected old covenant that couldn't save anyone.
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
Romans 11 seems opposed to what the amil or covenant view folks hold:
7 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The church and Israel will one day be united. Until then, Paul expresses the relationship between the two in Romans 11 but he also in the same passage shows the relationship as temporary, that the promise made to Abraham and David will be fulfilled.

Perhaps you can have a different rendering than that given by Paul.
The church IS New Covenant Israel. Look at Jeremiah 11:

Jer 11:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 11:2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,

Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.


Therefore, Romans 11:17 is clearly a reference to Jeremiah 11:16. The olive tree is Israel, plain and simple. It is not a "position of blessing," it is Israel.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree [or "shoot"], wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The church is New Covenant Israel. Under the New Covenant "all shall know [God] from the least to the greatest of them." This is true of the church. God reserved to Himself a remnant of faithful Jews from Old Covenant Israel "according to the election of grace." These were the apostles and their converts who received the New Covenant made with the house of Israel and Judah at Pentecost. The unbelieving Jews of "Israel after the flesh" were cut off through "partial blindness." Then, under Paul's ministry and with Cornelius and others, Gentiles by faith were grafted into the olive tree, which is Israel. They are made bona fide members of the New Covenant. Jew and Gentile are now equal before God and the olive tree is reconstituted under the New Covenant, consisting of believers only. All members of the New Covenant now "know the Lord from the least to the greatest of them."

Also, just because it says that "partial blindness has happened to Israel [after the flesh] until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" doesn't mean that something is supposed to change after this "fullness of the Gentiles." Romans 11:26 says "And so all Israel shall be saved..." The word so does not mean "then," it means "in this manner." The "partial blindness" (cutting off unbelieving natural branches) so that the remnant is preserved and Gentiles being added along with natural branches being grafted back in again IS the manner in which "all Israel shall be saved." All Israel is saved progressively when every elect Jew and Gentile comes to faith. When the veil is taken away in the heart of a Jew (2 Cor 3:16) and when a Gentile turns from idols to serve the living God (1 Thes 1:9), all Israel is being saved.

The New Covenant is a full and present reality. If we partake of "the cup of the New Covenant in My blood," we are clearly members of the New Covenant. This New Covenant was given by Christ to His disciples at the last passover, ratified at the cross, and inaugurated at Pentecost. Paul said the we are now "able ministers of a new covenant." We are not waiting for a future New Covenant with an ethnic Israel.
 

Allan

Active Member
From J. MacArther, from his commentary on Rev 20 in which he contrasts pre-mil with Post and Amil.

At the heart of the debate over millennial views is the issue of hermeneutics. All sides in the debate agree that interpreting Old Testament prophecy literally leads naturally to premillennialism. Amillennialist Floyd E. Hamilton candidly acknowledges that truth: “Now we must frankly admit that a literal interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies gives us just such a picture of an earthly reign of the Messiah as the premillennialist pictures” (The Basis of Millennial Faith [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1942], 38). Postmillennialist Loraine Boettner agrees with Hamilton’s assessment: “It is generally agreed that if the prophecies are taken literally, they do foretell a restoration of the nation of Israel in the land of Palestine with the Jews having a prominent place in that kingdom and ruling over the other nations” (“A Postmillennial Response [to Dispensational Premillennialism],” in The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, ed. Clouse, 95).

In light of the above admissions, the question that naturally arises is “Why not take the Old Testament prophecies of the Millennium literally?” Those who reject a literal interpretation argue that the New Testament appears to interpret some Old Testament prophecies nonliterally. But in most cases, the New Testament is not interpreting those prophecies, but merely applying principles found in them. In fact, scores of Old Testament prophecies relating to Christ’s first coming were literally fulfilled.

There are several compelling reasons for interpreting Old Testament prophecies literally.

First, if the literal sense of a passage is rejected, who is to determine what the nonliteral or spiritual sense is, since the normal rules of interpretation do not apply? Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., poses the dilemma:

Who or what will arbitrate among the various [nonliteral] meanings suggested and decide which are to be accepted as authoritative and which are spurious? Short of saying that every person’s fancy is his or her own rule, there does not appear to be any final court of appeal…. There simply are no justifiable criteria for setting boundaries once the interpreter departs from the normal usage of language. (Back Toward the Future [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1989], 129–30)

Second, adopting a nonliteral view of the Old Testament kingdom prophecies raises some disturbing questions: What did those prophecies mean to those to whom they were addressed? If prophecies seemingly addressed to Israel really apply to the church (which did not exist at that time), did God give revelation that failed to reveal? And if those prophecies were meant to apply symbolically to the church, why were they addressed to Israel? What meaning could such prophecies have in their historical settings? Ironically, many who spiritualize Old Testament prophecies reject the futurist interpretation of Revelation because it allegedly robs the book of its meaning for those to whom it was written. Yet they do the very same thing with the Old Testament kingdom prophecies.

Third, spiritualizing those prophecies leads to some glaring inconsistencies. It is inconsistent to argue that the cursings they pronounce apply literally to Israel, while the blessings they promise apply symbolically and spiritually to the church. An example of inconsistency in the spiritualizing method of interpreting prophecy comes from the angel Gabriel’s words to Mary in Luke 1:31–33:

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

If, as all conservative scholars agree, Jesus was literally conceived in Mary’s womb, literally named “Jesus,” literally became great, was literally “the Son of the Most High,” will He not also literally reign on David’s throne over Israel? Can the same passage be interpreted both literally and nonliterally? Further, both amillennialists and postmillennialists interpret some prophetic events literally, such as Christ’s second coming, the Great White Throne judgment, and the new heavens and the new earth. Why not interpret the millennial kingdom literally? Finally, amillennialists and postmillennialists interpret the nonprophetic portions of Scripture according to the literal, historical, grammatical, and contextual method of hermeneutics; why adopt a different method for interpreting prophecy? Such an adoption is utterly arbitrary.

Though not an exhaustive description of the earthly kingdom, this text caps off all the biblical revelation about the Millennium by revealing four essential truths about it: the removal of Satan, the reign of the saints, the return of Satan, and the revolt of society
I agree with him in that the heart of debate is really over hermeneutics.

Oh and by the way, let us acknowledge what 'literal sense' means. Since some will try to be funny and state, "if we are to be literal does that mean Jesus actually has eyes with fire coming out of them, as stated in Rev?"
Literal Bible interpretation means we understand the Bible in its normal/plain meaning. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. Many make the mistake of trying to read between the lines and come up with meanings for Scriptures that are not truly in the text...

Biblical hermeneutics keeps us faithful to the intended meaning of Scripture and away from allegorizing and symbolizing Bible verses and passages that should be understood literally.

A second crucial law of biblical hermeneutics is that a verse or passage must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. Historical interpretation refers to understanding the culture, background, and situation which prompted the text. Grammatical interpretation is recognizing the rules of grammar and nuances of the Hebrew and Greek languages and applying those principles to the understanding of a passage. Contextual interpretation involves always taking the surrounding context of a verse/passage into consideration when trying to determine the meaning.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Biblical-hermeneutics.html#ixzz2ZVhOAqOC
 
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