OT refutation of Augustinianism

[The Archangel]

Gen 43:33 And they sat before him, the firstborn according to his birthright, and the youngest according to his youth: and the men marvelled one at another.

This is speaking of Joseph's brothers when they went down to Egypt. Were any of them babies?

Youth here is צְעִירָה, obviouslya different word than Genesis 8.

Gen 46:33 And it shall come to pass, when Pharaoh shall call you, and shall say, What is your occupation?
34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Do babies have an occupation? Do they keep cattle?

Youth here is the same as we see in 1 Samuel.

Time prevents me from citing every reference you show. Suffice it to say that the word "Youth" in the KJV does not rightly carry the nuance of the Hebrew.

The KJV is simply a blind guide to you on this path.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Youth here is צְעִירָה, obviouslya different word than Genesis 8.

Youth here is the same as we see in 1 Samuel.

Time prevents me from citing every reference you show. Suffice it to say that the word "Youth" in the KJV does not rightly carry the nuance of the Hebrew.

The KJV is simply a blind guide to you on this path.

The Archangel

Suffice it me to say that NONE of those verses were speaking of babies, but persons at least teenage or much older.

So, it really doesn't matter what the "nuance" was.

 

[DHK]

Yes, context is king, and in most cases it is easily seen that "youth" is referring to a young person, at least teenage, and very rarely to little children.

Here are some of the uses of "youth" in scripture. Here is the first incidence after Gen 8:21


Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Babies and very little children do not have evil imaginations, little children are known for being innocent and brutally honest.

But what teenager is innocent?

Yes, context is king, and common sense is queen.

The phrase is from his youth indicating depravity from birth.
Strong's says this about this particular word:

or naur {naw-oor'}; and (feminine) nturah {neh- oo-raw'}; properly, passive participle from 5288 as denominative; (only in plural collectively or emphatic form) youth, the state (juvenility) or the persons (young people):—childhood, youth.

--Right from their very childhood they were depraved. It couldn't be any more clear than this.



About the word in general, The Theological Wordbook of the OT, edited by: R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr. and Bruce K. Waltke, have this to say:

That na'ar affords a wide range of usage is evident from a sampling of its over 200 occurrences. Whereas in Ex.2:6 it refers to the infant of a few months, Moses ("the babe wept"), and in 2Sam.12:16 to Bathseba's baby, the mature Absalom is called na'ar by his father in 2Sam.14:21 and 18:5. For the more technical or titular use, "servant, retainer," see 2Sam.16:1, where Zibah is called the "servant of Mephiboseth." Thus, while referencing to a youngster of ages between weaning and (especially) marriageable young manhood is primary (puberty is implied in Gen.34:19, etc. and early childhood in 1Sam.1:24 hanna'ar an'ar "the boy was a child"), the titular use of 2Kings 19:6, "the servants of the king of Assyria" (=Officials), and "soldier" (1Kings 20:15ff) must also be recognized.

Of over 200 occurrences it would be safe to assume that the majority of them would refer to either an infant or a small child, if one excepted the titular usage of a "servant," which is a completely different meaning altogether.

 

[Winman]

Here are all the times "youth" appears in the KJB, lets see how old the persons spoken of are;

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; H5271 neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I believe this is speaking of at least a teenager, as babies do not have evil imaginations.

Gen 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth H5271 even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Old enough to keep cattle

Lev 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, H5271 she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall no stranger eat thereof.

Old enough to marry

Num 30:3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth; H5271

Old enough to make vows

Num 30:16 These are the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, being yet in her youth H5271 in her father's house.

Most likely teenager or older

1Sa 12:2 And now, behold, the king walketh before you: and I am old and grayheaded; and, behold, my sons are with you: and I have walked before you from my childhood H5271 unto this day.

Teen or older

1Sa 17:33 And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth. H5271

Teen or older

2Sa 19:7 Now therefore arise, go forth, and speak comfortably unto thy servants: for I swear by the LORD, if thou go not forth, there will not tarry one with thee this night: and that will be worse unto thee than all the evil that befell thee from thy youth H5271 until now.

Teen or older

1Ki 18:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth. H5271

Teen or older

Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth. H5271

Teen or older

Job 31:18 (For from my youth H5271 he was brought up with me, as with a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb; )

Child

Psa 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, H5271 nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.

Teen or older

Psa 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth. H5271

Child or Teen

Psa 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: H5271 and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.

Child or teen

Psa 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth H5271 is renewed like the eagle's.

Child or teen

Psa 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. H5271

Young man, married with children

Psa 129:1 [[A Song of degrees.]] Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, H5271 may Israel now say:

Teen or older

Psa 129:2 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: H5271 yet they have not prevailed against me.

Teen or older

Psa 144:12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; H5271 that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:

Teen or older (grown up)

Pro 2:17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, H5271 and forgetteth the covenant of her God.

Teen or older

Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. H5271

Young man

Isa 47:12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; H5271 if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.

Old enough to work

Isa 47:15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: H5271 they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.

Old enough to work

Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, H5271 when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

Young man

Jer 2:2 Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, H5271 the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.

Teen or older

Jer 3:4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth? H5271

Child or teen

Jer 3:24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; H5271 their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.

Child or teen

Jer 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth H5271 even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

Teen or older

Jer 22:21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, H5271 that thou obeyedst not my voice.

Teen or older

Jer 31:19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth. H5271

Teen or older

Jer 32:30 For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have only done evil before me from their youth: H5271 for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith the LORD.

Child or teen

Jer 48:11 Moab hath been at ease from his youth, H5271 and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed.

Young man

Lam 3:27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. H5271

Young man

Eze 4:14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth H5271 up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

Old enough to understand dietary laws

Eze 16:22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, H5271 when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

Baby

Eze 16:43 Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, H5271 but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

Child or teen

Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, H5271 and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

Old enough to make a covenant.

Eze 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: H5271 there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Old enough to have sex

Eze 23:8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth H5271 they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

Old enough to commit whoredoms

Eze 23:19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, H5271 wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

Old enough to commit whoredoms

Eze 23:21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, H5271 in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth. H5271

Old enough to have breasts.

Hos 2:15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, H5271 and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

Teen or older

Joe 1:8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. H5271

Young woman

Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. H5271

Old enough to keep cattle

Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, H5271 against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

Young man, married

Mal 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. H5271

Young man, married

These are all the times the word "youth" is used in the KJB. I believe all of these are speaking of a young person who is a teenager or older, with the one exception of Eze 16:22 which is speaking of a newborn baby covered in it's own blood. There might be a few occasions where this word is speaking of a child younger than a teenager, but even here it is more likely speaking of an older child.

But it is obvious this word is primarily speaking of young persons at least in their teenage years or older.

 

[Winman]

Of over 200 occurrences it would be safe to assume that the majority of them would refer to either an infant or a small child, if one excepted the titular usage of a "servant," which is a completely different meaning altogether.

Total baloney as I have demonstated. The exact opposite is true, the word primarily represents a person of teenage years or older.

 

[DHK]

Total baloney as I have demonstated. The exact opposite is true, the word primarily represents a person of teenage years or older.

You read into the verse your own theology and then based on your obscured theology make your own conclusion. That is a fallacy.
I looked up the word specific to Genesis 8:21:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; H5271 neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I already explained this to you once.
The phrase is "from his youth," or "from his childhood," or even "from his infancy." Their hearts were evil since they were born. There is nothing here to say that is not the correct interpretation except for your bias. The phrase is "FROM their youth or infancy" their hearts were wicked.

This verse and many others like them, cannot be used by you as proof texts for your position.

 

[Winman]

You read into the verse your own theology and then based on your obscured theology make your own conclusion. That is a fallacy.
I looked up the word specific to Genesis 8:21:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; H5271 neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I already explained this to you once.
The phrase is "from his youth," or "from his childhood," or even "from his infancy." Their hearts were evil since they were born. There is nothing here to say that is not the correct interpretation except for your bias. The phrase is "FROM their youth or infancy" their hearts were wicked.

This verse and many others like them, cannot be used by you as proof texts for your position.

Baloney, all of those verses easily were speaking of an older person, you must be intellectually dishonest with yourself to say otherwise.

And it is the same with Gen 8:21, babies and little children do not have evil imaginations, EVERYONE knows this. Little children are known for being completely innocent and naive, and brutally honest.

Only someone who has let their mind become corrupted and perverted by false doctrine thinks little children are evil. Jesus NEVER spoke evil of little children, in fact, he told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. He said that little children have their own angels who do ALWAYS behold the face of his Father in heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

I know you, you will go on, and on, and on, and on, and on... You think if you talk someone to death that makes you correct. NO, it only shows how obstinate and stubborn you are to see the truth.

 

[DHK]

Baloney, all of those verses easily were speaking of an older person, you must be intellectually dishonest with yourself to say otherwise.

And it is the same with Gen 8:21, babies and little children do not have evil imaginations, EVERYONE knows this. Little children are known for being completely innocent and naive, and brutally honest.

Only someone who has let their mind become corrupted and perverted by false doctrine thinks little children are evil. Jesus NEVER spoke evil of little children, in fact, he told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. He said that little children have their own angels who do ALWAYS behold the face of his Father in heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

I know you, you will go on, and on, and on, and on, and on... You think if you talk someone to death that makes you correct. NO, it only shows how obstinate and stubborn you are to see the truth.

I quote to you Hebrew authorities; you reject them.
I show you how the context defines it; you reject it because of a biased theology and that is the only reason.

Furthermore, the verses you quote above further prove my point.
Except for your biased theology you would be able to see this very clearly.
What is Christ speaking about? He is speaking about faith.
You have had children; so have I. I know this; that my children, when very young, would not go easily to a stranger. They clung to their parents. They knew innately that it was their parents that took care of them, protected them, nourished them, etc. A stranger would not do that. Even at seven months or a year old they would not go easily to a stranger.
Why is that? It was faith--implicit faith in their parents--their father.
Jesus was teaching the same thing. You must have that implicit faith as a child in order to enter the kingdom of God. It is a simple child-like faith. It comes without works. That is the kind of faith that he is speaking about.

As a child has faith right from infancy (so to speak), under a year, so he can be depraved from that age. It is not that difficult to make that leap. Their imaginations were evil from their infancy. A small child could discern who would protect them and who could not. He had more thoughts than you think he had.

 

[Winman]

I quote to you Hebrew authorities; you reject them.
I show you how the context defines it; you reject it because of a biased theology and that is the only reason.

Furthermore, the verses you quote above further prove my point.
Except for your biased theology you would be able to see this very clearly.
What is Christ speaking about? He is speaking about faith.
You have had children; so have I. I know this; that my children, when very young, would not go easily to a stranger. They clung to their parents. They knew innately that it was their parents that took care of them, protected them, nourished them, etc. A stranger would not do that. Even at seven months or a year old they would not go easily to a stranger.
Why is that? It was faith--implicit faith in their parents--their father.
Jesus was teaching the same thing. You must have that implicit faith as a child in order to enter the kingdom of God. It is a simple child-like faith. It comes without works. That is the kind of faith that he is speaking about.

As a child has faith right from infancy (so to speak), under a year, so he can be depraved from that age. It is not that difficult to make that leap. Their imaginations were evil from their infancy. A small child could discern who would protect them and who could not. He had more thoughts than you think he had.

No, Jesus said they must be CONVERTED and become as a child. Which child? ANY CHILD. They must become SINLESS to enter heaven, they must be converted.

Little children are not sinners. It is when men become older and understand right from wrong and CHOOSE to sin that they become sinners.

Little children do not have evil imaginations, but everybody knows teenagers do.

It is you that refuses to see scripture. Jesus said little children have their own angels who look God in the face, but you refuse to see.

 

[DHK]

No, Jesus said they must be CONVERTED and become as a child. Which child? ANY CHILD. They must become SINLESS to enter heaven, they must be converted.

Little children are not sinners. It is when men become older and understand right from wrong and CHOOSE to sin that they become sinners.

Little children do not have evil imaginations, but everybody knows teenagers do.

It is you that refuses to see scripture. Jesus said little children have their own angels who look God in the face, but you refuse to see.

Context Winman; you avoid context. He wasn't speaking of repentance for small children don't repent and be converted. What is he speaking about?
Look at the context:

Mat 18:1 At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?'
Mat 18:2 And Jesus having called near a child, did set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 and said, `Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;
Mat 18:4 whoever then may humble himself as this child, he is the greater in the reign of the heavens.

They were arguing between themselves about who would be the greatest.
It was pride. Jesus was emphasizing humility.
Barnes says this:

And become as little children - i.e. Be as truly without worldly ambition, and the lust of power, as little children are, who act among themselves as if all were equal. The following saying from the Boostan of the poet Saady is very appropriate. “The hearts of infants being free from avarice, what care they for a handful of silver more than for a handful of dust?”

They had to be as little children, in faith trusting their parents, and as Barnes says not having a mind to treat others greater than themselves.
He wasn't speaking of things they could not understand: repentance from sin, conversion, etc.

 

[Winman]

Some folks NEVER get it...

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