OT Saints were Unregenerate yet sought God

[Iconoclast]

Matthew 8:11-12
“And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Here a poster apparently this verse somehow supported the idea that OT Saints entered the "Kingdom of Heaven" before Christ died. This assertion is false. Jesus is speaking during His lifetime, before He died. And so the tense of the phrase "many will come" is future. Christ's actual message is that many Gentiles will join the patriarchs in heaven, but some of the Jews will be thrown into outer darkness.

Similarly, in Luke 13:28, Jesus is referring to a place outside the Kingdom of Heaven, where in the future, they will see those in the Kingdom while they themselves are being cast out.

Thus neither verse support the bogus view, but both actually teach nobody entered the kingdom before Christ died.

And yet Jesus declared the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to another...go figure.

 

[Iconoclast]

Did you not read my post?

Yes he did, that's why he commented.
In fact looks like everyone has come to the same conclusion

 

[Iconoclast]

[HATE SPEECH AGAINST ANOTHER BELIEVER ERASED instead of simply posting a response]

Had they been "regenerated" before Christ died? Nope, for all those born anew follow Christ as He is the first born of all the born anew creation.

Enoch was taken up in an unregenerate condition?

 

[kyredneck]

John 6:44 says no one can come to Me (Christ) unless drawn by the Father.

...and vice versa:

25 At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes:
26 yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.
27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. Mt 11

Can they seek God without God revealing Himself?

Anyone that is genuinely seeking God, God has already wrought within them:

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`Jn 3 YLT

It's 'regeneration BEFORE faith', always.

Eternal life is a free gift. One is not rewarded with it due to act of faith on their part. All those believing already are in possession of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

 

[kyredneck]

Enoch was taken up in an unregenerate condition?

This has come up before. Why would anyone think that OT Saints were not regenerate? Was there something special or better about them that rendered the birth from above unnecessary?

 

[Iconoclast]

This has come up before. Why would anyone think that OT Saints were not regenerate? Was there something special or better about them that rendered the birth from above unnecessary?

Such thinking only comes from an teaching known as Vanology

 

[Van]

Scripture clearly teaches the OT Saints were unregenerate before Christ died to become the first born from the dead. Subsequently, God's individually chosen people have been regenerated (made alive) together with Christ.

Enoch was taken up in an unregenerate condition?

Does anyone think Jesus was mistaken when He said no one ascended to heaven (the third heaven)?

 

[Van]

...and vice versa:
SNIP
Anyone that is genuinely seeking God, God has already wrought within them:

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`Jn 3 YLT

It's 'regeneration BEFORE faith', always.

Eternal life is a free gift. One is not rewarded with it due to act of faith on their part. All those believing already are in possession of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

Regeneration only occurs after Christ died. To be "regenerated" refers to being "made alive" and people are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5. Since we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, our credited faith existed before we were individually chosen, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. All scripture, including every verse cited above supports this truth.

 

[AustinC]

Regeneration only occurs after Christ died. To be "regenerated" refers to being "made alive" and people are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5. Since we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, our credited faith existed before we were individually chosen, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. All scripture, including every verse cited above supports this truth.

Vanology 101
Proven wrong so many times that one cannot count them all up, yet still asserted by Van anyway.
At this point it's not worth showing the error since Van wouldn't listen anyway.

 

[Van]

Taint so posts are based on personal incredulity. Person Incredulity argumentation is a logical fallacy.

 

[AustinC]

Taint so posts are based on personal incredulity. Person Incredulity argumentation is a logical fallacy.

Vanology 101, Section 2

 

[Van]

Vanology 101, Section 2

Ad hominem argumentation is another logical fallacy.

 

[Van]

Exodus 33:7
Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.

Thus the premise that unregenerate OT people sometimes sought God is biblical truth.

The interpretation that no one ever sought God is obviously false.

 

[kyredneck]

34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world. Mt 13

Regeneration only occurs after Christ died.

Wrong. Christ was implementing no new thing, he was revealing a mystery from of old.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

 

[Van]

34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world. Mt 13

Wrong. Christ was implementing no new thing, he was revealing a mystery from of old.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

That the mystery of the gospel of Christ was hidden in the OT is not at issue.

Ephesians 6:19
and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Wrong, the New Covenant in His blood is new, thus only after Christ died were the OT Saints made perfect.

Jesus described an attribute of those born of the Spirit, and did not indicate anyone had yet been born anew.

 

[Dave G]

Does anyone think Jesus was mistaken when He said no one ascended to heaven (the third heaven)?

No one has, except the Lord Jesus ( John 3:13, John 6:62, John 20:17 ).

The only other two to go and join the Lord before they died were taken by God:
Enoch ( Genesis 5:24 ), and Elijah ( 2 Kings 2:1, 2 Kings 2:10-11 ).

To be "regenerated" refers to being "made alive" and people are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5.

Amen.
Outside of being made alive in Christ there is no eternal life, and there is no true knowledge of God and an appreciation for His ways.
So, where are the Old Testament saints right now?

With Christ.

Again...
"...Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).
"...Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ( John 3:5 ).

Scripture is clear, Van...

One has to be born of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God.
Therefore, since they are there with the Lord at this moment, they were born from above.

May God bless you.

 

[37818]

One has to be born of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God.
Therefore, since they are there with the Lord at this moment, they were born from above.

I am of the view poini OT saints are now as much part of the kingdom of God as those who were born again in their life time. Ephesians 4:8.

 

[AustinC]

Ad hominem argumentation is another logical fallacy.

Vanology 101 Section 3

 

[agedman]

Exodus 33:7
Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.

Thus the premise that unregenerate OT people sometimes sought God is biblical truth.

The interpretation that no one ever sought God is obviously false.

The tent of meeting was Outside the camp, NOT the tabernacle! The tabernacle was in the center of the camp.

The tent outside is where Mosses conducted business and, as God’s spokesperson, they new what He said came from God’s authority.

Again, “The interpretation that no one ever sought God is” proven obviously true.

If the Isreali wanted to seek God, was He not right in the midst of them?

Yet, they sought not God, but the spokesman for God.

Just as today, folks will find a preacher but not search for God.

 

[Van]

Since no one (other than Jesus) had ascended to heaven, that means neither Enoch ( Genesis 5:24 ), and Elijah ( 2 Kings 2:1, 2 Kings 2:10-11 ) ascended to (the third) heaven.

The lost do sometimes acquire knowledge of God, which is true. God revealed His divine attributes in what He has made, so they are without excuse.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Thus the bogus claim there is "no true knowledge of God" once again demonstrates unbiblical assertion.

The OT Saints are in the third heaven right now. But they had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died.

Did anyone say or suggest the OT Saints were not made alive together with Christ? Nope

Did the OT Saints seek God without being regenerated? Yes, both the OT and the NT describes people seeking God without being regenerated, made alive, born anew.