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Featured OT Saints were Unregenerate yet sought God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Feb 9, 2022.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    And yet Jesus declared the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to another...go figure.
     
    #41 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes he did, that's why he commented.
    In fact looks like everyone has come to the same conclusion:Notworthy:Notworthy:Notworthy
     
    #42 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Enoch was taken up in an unregenerate condition?
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...and vice versa:

    25 At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes:
    26 yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.
    27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. Mt 11

    Anyone that is genuinely seeking God, God has already wrought within them:

    20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
    21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`Jn 3 YLT

    It's 'regeneration BEFORE faith', always.

    Eternal life is a free gift. One is not rewarded with it due to act of faith on their part. All those believing already are in possession of it:

    He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

    .....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

    ... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47
     
    #44 kyredneck, Feb 11, 2022
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This has come up before. Why would anyone think that OT Saints were not regenerate? Was there something special or better about them that rendered the birth from above unnecessary?
     
    #45 kyredneck, Feb 11, 2022
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Such thinking only comes from an teaching known as Vanology
     
    #46 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Scripture clearly teaches the OT Saints were unregenerate before Christ died to become the first born from the dead. Subsequently, God's individually chosen people have been regenerated (made alive) together with Christ.
    Does anyone think Jesus was mistaken when He said no one ascended to heaven (the third heaven)?
     
    #47 Van, Feb 12, 2022
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Regeneration only occurs after Christ died. To be "regenerated" refers to being "made alive" and people are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5. Since we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, our credited faith existed before we were individually chosen, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. All scripture, including every verse cited above supports this truth.
     
    #48 Van, Feb 12, 2022
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Vanology 101
    Proven wrong so many times that one cannot count them all up, yet still asserted by Van anyway.
    At this point it's not worth showing the error since Van wouldn't listen anyway.
     
    #49 AustinC, Feb 12, 2022
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  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Taint so posts are based on personal incredulity. Person Incredulity argumentation is a logical fallacy.
     
    #50 Van, Feb 12, 2022
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Vanology 101, Section 2
     
    #51 AustinC, Feb 12, 2022
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Ad hominem argumentation is another logical fallacy.
     
    #52 Van, Feb 12, 2022
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Exodus 33:7
    Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.

    Thus the premise that unregenerate OT people sometimes sought God is biblical truth.

    The interpretation that no one ever sought God is obviously false.
     
    #53 Van, Feb 12, 2022
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
    35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world. Mt 13


    Wrong. Christ was implementing no new thing, he was revealing a mystery from of old.

    7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
    8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3
     
    #54 kyredneck, Feb 12, 2022
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    That the mystery of the gospel of Christ was hidden in the OT is not at issue.

    Ephesians 6:19
    and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

    Wrong, the New Covenant in His blood is new, thus only after Christ died were the OT Saints made perfect.

    Jesus described an attribute of those born of the Spirit, and did not indicate anyone had yet been born anew.
     
    #55 Van, Feb 12, 2022
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No one has, except the Lord Jesus ( John 3:13, John 6:62, John 20:17 ).

    The only other two to go and join the Lord before they died were taken by God:
    Enoch ( Genesis 5:24 ), and Elijah ( 2 Kings 2:1, 2 Kings 2:10-11 ).
    Amen.
    Outside of being made alive in Christ there is no eternal life, and there is no true knowledge of God and an appreciation for His ways.
    So, where are the Old Testament saints right now?

    With Christ.

    Again...
    "...Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).
    "...Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ( John 3:5 ).

    Scripture is clear, Van...

    One has to be born of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Therefore, since they are there with the Lord at this moment, they were born from above.

    May God bless you.
     
    #56 Dave G, Feb 12, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2022
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am of the view poini OT saints are now as much part of the kingdom of God as those who were born again in their life time. Ephesians 4:8.
     
    #57 37818, Feb 12, 2022
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Vanology 101 Section 3
     
    #58 AustinC, Feb 12, 2022
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  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The tent of meeting was Outside the camp, NOT the tabernacle! The tabernacle was in the center of the camp.

    The tent outside is where Mosses conducted business and, as God’s spokesperson, they new what He said came from God’s authority.

    Again, “The interpretation that no one ever sought God is” proven obviously true.

    If the Isreali wanted to seek God, was He not right in the midst of them?

    Yet, they sought not God, but the spokesman for God.

    Just as today, folks will find a preacher but not search for God.
     
    #59 agedman, Feb 12, 2022
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since no one (other than Jesus) had ascended to heaven, that means neither Enoch ( Genesis 5:24 ), and Elijah ( 2 Kings 2:1, 2 Kings 2:10-11 ) ascended to (the third) heaven.

    The lost do sometimes acquire knowledge of God, which is true. God revealed His divine attributes in what He has made, so they are without excuse.

    Romans 1:20
    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Thus the bogus claim there is "no true knowledge of God" once again demonstrates unbiblical assertion.

    The OT Saints are in the third heaven right now. But they had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died.

    Did anyone say or suggest the OT Saints were not made alive together with Christ? Nope

    Did the OT Saints seek God without being regenerated? Yes, both the OT and the NT describes people seeking God without being regenerated, made alive, born anew.
     
    #60 Van, Feb 13, 2022
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