Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: While you are on a roll of blasting OT saints, will you lay sin to the charge of Elijah as well?
By the way, was Sarah Abraham's sister?
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OT Salvation
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: While you are on a roll of blasting OT saints, will you lay sin to the charge of Elijah as well?
By the way, was Sarah Abraham's sister?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Enoch and Elijah were not only saved by the one true Gospel active in both OT and NT -- they were also taken to heaven.
This is proof positive that EVEN though "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" YET salvation in the OT was "real" -- not fake, not pretend, not memorex.
This is proof positive that EVEN though "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" YET salvation in the OT was "real" -- not fake, not pretend, not memorex.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Where is your Scriptural proof of that assertion?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
It is a bogus notion to imply that if anyone lived a sinless life before God that they could have been our sacrifice for sin. God ordained that He would give of Himself a sinless sacrifice to redeem man. IF any did live sinless, they would have only procured their own standing before God, not that of any other, Jesus excepted.. Certainly there could only be a couple of ‘possible’ cases recorded in Scripture. Enoch and Elijah are the only ones I can think of.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: BR, do you enjoy manufacturing paper ducks to shoot at? Who has ever stated that salvation was not real in the OT??
You made a statement to the effect that it was 'the same gospel.' If it was the same gospel in every sense as your comment would imply, the same conditions should apply to both the OT and NT. The problem is that God required far different conditions to say the Jew in the OT and the Gentile or Jew in the NT. Your 'same gospel' comment does not take into account the changes that were made in procuring an atonement for sin, which is what salvation is all about is it not? Does not salvation encompass a host of requirements under the OT that do not have an effect on us today? I can see much change in the NT as opposed to the old covenant. Your trying to make them both the same is simply an oversimplification at best, an unscriptural assertion at worst.
Scripture tells us that we are dealing with TWO not one covenants. The old is decayed and the new was put in its place.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
You made a statement to the effect that it was 'the same gospel.' If it was the same gospel in every sense as your comment would imply, the same conditions should apply to both the OT and NT. The problem is that God required far different conditions to say the Jew in the OT and the Gentile or Jew in the NT. Your 'same gospel' comment does not take into account the changes that were made in procuring an atonement for sin, which is what salvation is all about is it not? Does not salvation encompass a host of requirements under the OT that do not have an effect on us today? I can see much change in the NT as opposed to the old covenant. Your trying to make them both the same is simply an oversimplification at best, an unscriptural assertion at worst.
Scripture tells us that we are dealing with TWO not one covenants. The old is decayed and the new was put in its place.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
LeBuick said:
That is correct - any other view is at it's core a "two Gospel solution" and we know from Gal 1:6-11 that this is simply not biblical.
It takes faith today to look backward in time to a historic event that we can not see -- as it did for them to look forward.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Same as in "listen to the same preacher and attend the same church" or "same" as in "saved by Grace through faith" where Christ's precross statement about the "New Birth" is just as valid pre-cross as post-cross?
Recall that Heb 10 states that NO animal sacrifice ever forgave one single sin. The animal sacrifices were a "form of worship service" but animal blood never forgave one single sin.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Not really.
The OT sacrifices were there to point forward to the coming of Christ. Just as today we have the Lord's Supper pointing back to that event and we have Baptism.
But these are SYMBOLS not "another Gospel".
The Gentiles of the OT were saved without having to "Become Jews" just as in the NT.
Notice that in Acts 15 "some judaizers" suppose that gentiles must first become jews to be saved - but the JEWS that led the Jerusalem council - like James, Peter, Paul etc rejected that.
Hint: No one is saved while under the Old Covenant (2Cor 3 -- it is the covenant of death) and no one is lost while under the New Covenant as defined by Jeremiah.
The Gospel IS the spiritual New Covenant.
The lost condition IS the spiritual Old Covenant - where as we see in 2Cor 3 (The covenant of death) the Law is merely external and not written on the heart.
People are confused on this point because in addition to the spiritual version of the Old Covenant there is also the nation-church covenant with Israel promising them "realestate" in this world. Somehow people today confusing realestate on this sinful planet with heaven and salvation.
in Christ,
Bob
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If you are trying to be novel you are doing a great job of it. To ‘be saved’ is somewhat confusing, but just the same it is basically synonymous with entering into a right relationship with God. In the OT as a Jew it was through the sacrificial system, looking forward to the Messiah to come, that such was made possible. It is NOT that the sacrificial system, in and of itself, had the power to save, but just the same, God chose that system to be followed and obeyed in that dispensation in order to enter into a right relationship with Him. That was, for all practical purposes, one temporary way, set up by God to act as a schoolmaster until the new covenant was established.
Hebrews 10: 9 sets the two systems at antipodes, one having to be abolished that the other be revealed. The first had to be taken away for the other to be established. Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Your solution re-invents John 3:16 to be "God so loved just the Jews that He gave them a way to heaven but no one else for 4000 years... then eventually God started so Loving the World".
But in the O.T God presents Himself as the Savior of the entire world. "All ends of the earth" ... "everyone" etc.
I agree with you that "the OT sacrifices had no power to save" and they had no power to forgive. In Dan 9 -- Daniel prays directly to God for forgiveness with neither priest no sacrifice -- not in Babylon and not in Jerusalem. Forgiveness was always individual - and could not be done while in open rebellion against the Word of God in the OT any more than in the NT.
The "Create in me a clean heart" prayer directly to God is seen in the life of David long before Daniel's prayer and Jacob prays directly to God at Bethel without priest or sacrifice. This is the "new heart" of the New Covenant - because the New Covenant IS the gospel. The O.T is never called the "Old Covenant" and the New Testament is never called "the New Covenant". Rather the New Covenant IS the Gospel -- and there is only one. You do not enter into the New Heart -- Forgiven state of the New Covenant and then remain there as a "lost person" it does not describe the lost state.
Correction here is just like the one I do with "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" Mythical 5:8. People here it so often they begin to think it is actually in scripture that way. And many have heard that the OT is the Old Covenant so long that they believe the Bible ever said it. The only truth to that is that the OT worship service is sometimes called the "Old Covenant" -- but in 2Cor 3 the issue is not the worship service -- it is salvation and the Old Covenant is the spiritual condition of NOT having the Law written on the tablets of the human heart.
The "form of worship" may have changed between OT and NT - but the Gospel worked the same.
in Christ,
Bob
But in the O.T God presents Himself as the Savior of the entire world. "All ends of the earth" ... "everyone" etc.
I agree with you that "the OT sacrifices had no power to save" and they had no power to forgive. In Dan 9 -- Daniel prays directly to God for forgiveness with neither priest no sacrifice -- not in Babylon and not in Jerusalem. Forgiveness was always individual - and could not be done while in open rebellion against the Word of God in the OT any more than in the NT.
The "Create in me a clean heart" prayer directly to God is seen in the life of David long before Daniel's prayer and Jacob prays directly to God at Bethel without priest or sacrifice. This is the "new heart" of the New Covenant - because the New Covenant IS the gospel. The O.T is never called the "Old Covenant" and the New Testament is never called "the New Covenant". Rather the New Covenant IS the Gospel -- and there is only one. You do not enter into the New Heart -- Forgiven state of the New Covenant and then remain there as a "lost person" it does not describe the lost state.
Correction here is just like the one I do with "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" Mythical 5:8. People here it so often they begin to think it is actually in scripture that way. And many have heard that the OT is the Old Covenant so long that they believe the Bible ever said it. The only truth to that is that the OT worship service is sometimes called the "Old Covenant" -- but in 2Cor 3 the issue is not the worship service -- it is salvation and the Old Covenant is the spiritual condition of NOT having the Law written on the tablets of the human heart.
The "form of worship" may have changed between OT and NT - but the Gospel worked the same.
in Christ,
Bob
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BR
"Heb 4:1-3 "WE have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also""
GE
Praise God for our agreement!
I found it also very interesting Ignatius it was (I think - I'm getting old and forgetful) who made exactly the same conclusion where he says the Prophets (of the Old Testament) "lived according to Christ while keeping the Sabbath". Then they want to tell me Ignatius spoke of the day of the sungod! They clearly don't know what they're talking - think they need no accurate memory for their lying.
"Heb 4:1-3 "WE have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also""
GE
Praise God for our agreement!
I found it also very interesting Ignatius it was (I think - I'm getting old and forgetful) who made exactly the same conclusion where he says the Prophets (of the Old Testament) "lived according to Christ while keeping the Sabbath". Then they want to tell me Ignatius spoke of the day of the sungod! They clearly don't know what they're talking - think they need no accurate memory for their lying.
skypair said:
GE
I always thought to judge another by the Law is the ugliest thing possible for a Christian; now I have seen something much uglier, a Christian judging another Christian without even the Law!
HP
To ‘be saved’ is somewhat confusing, but just the same it is basically synonymous with entering into a right relationship with God. In the OT as a Jew it was through the sacrificial system, looking forward to the Messiah to come, that such was made possible."
GE
I must technically disagree with you. "The sacrificial system" "did not make the comers thereunto perfect" - it was insufficient, "infirm" i.e., had no power to forgive sins. No one's sins has ever been forgiven by virtue of sacrifices be it the sacrifice of his own life's blood. Anyone ever justified - that is - whose sins have been forgiven and through it have obtained a right standing with God - has been justified by grace through faith --- OF AND IN CHRIST! Each one, individually one by one, yet of the number of the Elect. No one is an Elect outside of Christ no, not one! And of the Elect it is God's condition of the salvation of his soul, that he should be crucified with Christ in His body and be resurrected in Christ and in and through His resurrection from the dead --- or be lost - never having been one of the Elect. Salvation is only Covenantal - it is not individually only. And Jesus Christ is the Surety of God's Covenant of Grace. Therefore never ever has anyone been saved but he was saved by Christ, through Christ, in Christ, and, FOR Christ - that He alone should receive all the thanks and all the glory of redemption. He shares it with none else.
To ‘be saved’ is somewhat confusing, but just the same it is basically synonymous with entering into a right relationship with God. In the OT as a Jew it was through the sacrificial system, looking forward to the Messiah to come, that such was made possible."
GE
I must technically disagree with you. "The sacrificial system" "did not make the comers thereunto perfect" - it was insufficient, "infirm" i.e., had no power to forgive sins. No one's sins has ever been forgiven by virtue of sacrifices be it the sacrifice of his own life's blood. Anyone ever justified - that is - whose sins have been forgiven and through it have obtained a right standing with God - has been justified by grace through faith --- OF AND IN CHRIST! Each one, individually one by one, yet of the number of the Elect. No one is an Elect outside of Christ no, not one! And of the Elect it is God's condition of the salvation of his soul, that he should be crucified with Christ in His body and be resurrected in Christ and in and through His resurrection from the dead --- or be lost - never having been one of the Elect. Salvation is only Covenantal - it is not individually only. And Jesus Christ is the Surety of God's Covenant of Grace. Therefore never ever has anyone been saved but he was saved by Christ, through Christ, in Christ, and, FOR Christ - that He alone should receive all the thanks and all the glory of redemption. He shares it with none else.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Let the reader take notice. The above is a constant fabricated talking point of BR but it holds no validity neither is it the end of my argument or the end of the Churches argument for two thousand years. It is BR that is inventing an idea foreign to Scripture, not I. BR suggests an idea foreign to Scripture, and foreign to reason when he implies that if God so loves He must show mercy or If God does love, His mercy must be extended to all in the same manner through out all ages.
One needs to understand that God loves Himself and His law as well as His sentient created beings. What would happen in our society if every time the penalty of the law was inflicted, mercy was made readily available? What would happen to the law and its ability to enforce moral sanctions upon the citizens under which it was established to govern? Mercy has the distinct ability to destroy the laws effectiveness if not meted out wisely and under certain wise conditions.
God in His wisdom chose not to simply send the Messiah from the garden to establish his offer of mercy, but rather chose to utilize a schoolmaster as the chosen means to establish the law for a period of time, to a chosen group of individuals called the Jews. During this time, a universal call to partake of God’s mercy resides in the figment of BR’s imagination, and not within the confines of Scripture. God’s show of mercy was extended primarily and for all practical purposes directly to the descendants of Abraham alone. When BR charges myself with folly for suggesting that God’s mercy was not directly distributed to all of mankind through out the OT period, his contention is with God not I. Ro 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
One only need read the parable of the marriage supper to see first hand how, when, and why the Gentiles received the call universally to salvation.
Lu 14:23” And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.” Note the means by which God utilizes to spread the good news. His chosen means is man, not some universal means as BR suggests is the case.
HP: God is the Savior of the entire world, but the direct call to the Gentiles did not happen until the NT took effect, namely beginning with the advent of the Apostle Paul coming on the scene.
HP: Obviously God demands no impossibilities out of man, neither in the OT nor in the NT. God has every right to make exceptions where He in His wisdom finds it just and wise to do so. What one cannot wisely do is to find a ‘possible’ exception by a Jew of not fulfilling the law as prescribed in the OT for forgiveness of sin, and extrapolate that to somehow show that God’s law could simply be set aside at will or that His law upon the Jews dealing with the sacrificial system could be ignored or set aside at will. Neither can any such example of a Jew be extrapolated to show that all Gentiles had the same offer of mercy or the same opportunity extended to them during this time period as any general rule.
HP: Were you there? How do you know that? Besides, no one is saying that one could not have prayed and at certain times and certain circumstances found forgiveness without a sacrifice being offered at that time, but that is no indication that they did not offer a sacrifice when able just as prescribed by God to do so.
HP: Try as you may, the New Testament did not take full effect until Christ died on the cross. The prophets of old foretold of the new testament yet to come, The testator had to die for the covenant to take effect. Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
HP: Play word games if you wish with covenant and or testament, but there were two distinct covenants, the old and the new. Christ was indeed the focal point of both, the Old Testament in types and shadows and the New Testament He is revealed as the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Christ came in the NT to fulfill the promises made and foretold in the OT about that which would happen in the future.
HP: What are you speaking of here? It is completely incoherent as I see it.
HP: Where is there any support for the notion you claim here? Where do Scriptures assert or imply that the old covenant is a ‘spiritual condition of Not having the law written on the heart?” Speaking of manufacturing notions out of thin air BR…
HP: Show us one OT verse that even mentions the gospel. The gospel of the kingdom was not preached until the advent of Christ in the NT.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Who said it did? Certainly not I. Still the same, it was God’s prescribed plan to be followed until the revealing of Christ in the NT.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
God calls all men to repent, yet repentance in and of itself cannot save anyone. God calls upon man to exercise faith, yet faith in and of itself has no power to save anyone. These facts do no lesson the fact that without repentance and faith, no man shall be saved. Conditions of salvation are always thought of in the sense of not without which, not that for the sake of.
In the OT God gave His law and prescribed a sacrificial plan of redemption to point to the Messiah to come. That sacrificial system can best be seen as conditions to be fulfilled in order for forgiveness to take place. They had no salvic ability in and of themselves, but just the same God established and enjoined the sacrificial system as temporary conditions to be met, a schoolmaster, until Christ be revealed.
In the OT God gave His law and prescribed a sacrificial plan of redemption to point to the Messiah to come. That sacrificial system can best be seen as conditions to be fulfilled in order for forgiveness to take place. They had no salvic ability in and of themselves, but just the same God established and enjoined the sacrificial system as temporary conditions to be met, a schoolmaster, until Christ be revealed.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
GE
Not you? Whp said, "basically synonymous with entering into a right relationship with God. In the OT as a Jew it was through the sacrificial system, looking forward to the Messiah to come, that such was made possible."?