OT Salvation

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In this country that should have been the richest on earth, we have no electricity supplied ... So cheers till the lights go on again!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE
Not you? Whp said, "basically synonymous with entering into a right relationship with God. In the OT as a Jew it was through the sacrificial system, looking forward to the Messiah to come, that such was made possible."?

HP: Repentance and faith have no power to forgive our sins or secure for us a pardon and neither does faith. May I tell you what God requires for salvation? Repentance and faith.

The sacrificial system of the OT had no power to forgive anyone for sins ‘in and of itself.’ Do you know what God required out of the Jews in the OT for forgiveness of sins? Obedience to the sacrificial system coupled with two other things that could not in themselves, atone for a solitary sin; repentance and faith.

I say you can say, in common parlance, that the means and conditions set forth by God for their salvation indeed involved obedience to the law when you understand the sense in which I am speaking. I could say that they were saved as a result of their obedience to what God commanded them to do which was in the Jews case, in the keeping of the law. Certainly not simply outwardly, but coupled with a heart of repentance and faith it was the means given to them at that time for that time period of salvation or a right relationship with God. If God says do this and ye shall live, make this sacrifice and I will forgive your sins, you can take it to the bank, it will suffice for the end God says it will.

The sacrificial system only had power that God enabled it to have for the interim period prior to the advent of Christ. Christ was the physical embodiment of the entire plan of redemption the ceremonial sacrificial system only served as a schoolmaster for. The sacrificial system received its ability to accomplish its ends by the merit of God’s Word that said it would accomplish thus and so.

Certainly IN THE MOST STRICT SENSE, no sacrifice could atone for a single sin, yet God said make this sacrifice in this manner with this heart, and I will forgive your sins. One of the reasons the sacrificial system was not perfect was that it had to be repeated every year. Christ sacrifice was made once for all. Again, any sacrifice apart from Christ was only a temporary substitute for a brief time looking forward to the time the Ultimate sacrifice would be made to which all others merely pointed.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't care how you argue these things - you obviously need a lot of words and paper for it. All I know is The Scriptures say by faith Abraham was justified and reckoned righteousness - and all the others before Jesus came. And all I know is Abraham's was a faith in Him - The One Promised, the Christ and Saviour. And all I know is righteousness was NOT accounted Abraham or anyone else after he believed or obeyed or was born again; but before! Faith by gracefull gift of God in Christ accepts that redemption full and complete IN CHRIST - no one has been saved but through the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Dispensation of Faith - from Adam to the last son of his! The Word sounds clear and loud, it's written - in the Law and upon the heart: That Jesus Christ saves, and shall save as He ever had and has saved all saved. Apologetics are useless; conceptual logics vain; philosophy is foolishness, and doctrinal craft and craftiness salty sweat that quenches no thirst. I am this sinner, o God, be merciful upon me! Christ saves sinners, and no one but sinners!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: conceptual logics vain; philosophy is foolishness, and doctrinal craft and craftiness salty sweat that quenches no thirst.

HP: Is this what we get for a reward for the electricity now obviously flowing into your computer? :laugh:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Is this what we get for a reward for the electricity now obviously flowing into your computer? :laugh:

GE
dimming the light in my computer-tissue ... ha-ha-ha! But serious, read Knitter, so learned but so stupid!

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: Your solution re-invents John 3:16 to be "God so loved just the Jews that He gave them a way to heaven but no one else for 4000 years... then eventually God started so Loving the World".

BR suggests an idea foreign to Scripture, and foreign to reason when he implies that if God so loves He must show mercy or If God does love, His mercy must be extended to all in the same manner through out all ages.

One needs to understand that God loves Himself and His law as well as His sentient created beings. What would happen in our society if every time the penalty of the law was inflicted, mercy was made readily available? What would happen to the law and its ability to enforce moral sanctions upon the citizens under which it was established to govern? Mercy has the distinct ability to destroy the laws effectiveness if not meted out wisely and under certain wise conditions.

You are going from one wrong option to another.

1. God's mercy is NOT in the form of violating God's justice.

2. God's mercy is ONLY for those who CHOOSE to accept the Gospel that is freely given to all.

3. But ALL who choose to REJECT that mercy will find that JUSTICE is still in full force. All who ACCEPT that mercy will ALSO find JUSTICE is in full force for Christ had to pay their debt for them -- the debt that JUSTICE demands if the law is to be upheld EVEN in the case of those who are rescued.

God in His wisdom chose not to simply send the Messiah from the garden to establish his offer of mercy, but rather chose to utilize a schoolmaster as the chosen means to establish the law for a period of time

Hint: the "shoolmaster" is STILL leading the lost to a condition where they see themselves as NEEDING rescue from the penalty of the law. The Law did not END it's schoolmaster role at Calvary according to Gal 3 it only ends that role for the INDIVIDUAL when that PERSON "comes to FAITH".

As we saw in Heb 11 and the giants of FAITH in the O.T --

Since you are rejecting the "savior of the WORLD" in the O.T and claiming He only exists in the N.T -- A few texts to disabuse you of that notion sir.

Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord (YHWH)?

Isaiah 45:20-23
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

I am God – there is no other. A righteous God AND a Savior. There is none except Me.

Is 56:6-7
6 ""Also the FOREIGNERS who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning THE Sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for ALL the peoples.''

1Kings 8:41-43
41 "Also concerning the foreigner who is not of Your people Israel, when he comes from a far country for Your name's sake
42 (for they will hear of Your great name and Your mighty hand, and of Your outstretched arm); when he comes and prays toward this house,
43 hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Your name, to fear You, as do Your people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I have built is called by Your name.
…
59 "And may these words of mine, with which I have made supplication before the LORD, be near to the LORD our God day and night, that He may maintain the cause of His servant and the cause of His people Israel, as each day requires,
60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no one else.


Is 49:6
“I will also make you a light to the Nations so my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth” (Quoted in Acts 13:47 by Paul showing that God’s people were to be a light to the Gentiles – based on OT command)

Jer 12:14-17
God will uproot the heathen nations around Israel – but will later have compassion on them and return them to their lands. Then if they learn to worship the God of Israel – He will establish those foreign nations and bless them.

2 Chron 6:32
When foreigner who is not of Israel comes from a far land to pray toward this house…”

2Kings 19:18
Now O Lord, deliver us … that All the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone are God


Micah 4:2
2 Many nations will come and say,
"Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths."
For from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And He will judge between many peoples
And render decisions for mighty, distant nations.
Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they train for war.

 

[BobRyan]

Zech 8:20-23
20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities.
21 'The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will also go."
22 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.'
23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

Rom 4:11
Abraham – the father of all who believe without being circumcised that righteousness may be reckoned to them

Acts 13:46-49
Quotes Isaiah 49:6 – showing it to be a command to God’s people to turn to the Gentiles and evangelize.

Deut 10:18 God “loves the Aliens and Foreigners”

Ps 67:2,6-7
1.God be gracious to us and bless us …
2. that Thy way may be known on the Earth. Thy salvation among All nations.
3. Let the peoples praise Thee – let All the peoples praise Thee.
6. God our God blesses us
7. Our God blesses us that all the ends of the earth may fear Him

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: 1. God's mercy is NOT in the form of violating God's justice.

HP: No one said or implied it did. Justice by no means places any obligation to save or share the gospel with one or all. Justice demands payment for incurred debt. Justice simply demands that if God is going to punish or praise man, that He endow them with the necessary abilities of contrary choice and allow for the opportunity for that to happen.
It is you that destroys justice in that you have God condemning man as a sinner when there was no other option available to him but to be the sinner that he now finds himself as. Now that is injustice BR, as foisted upon us via the false dogma of original sin.

BR: 2. God's mercy is ONLY for those who CHOOSE to accept the Gospel that is freely given to all.

HP: You have never established by one text properly that all have received the salvation message. That is the question and the question in which you seem always to have scripture to indicate but which in reality have nothing the least to show support for your novel idea, save in the regions of your own imagination.


3. But ALL who choose to REJECT that mercy will find that JUSTICE is still in full force. All who ACCEPT that mercy will ALSO find JUSTICE is in full force for Christ had to pay their debt for them -- the debt that JUSTICE demands if the law is to be upheld EVEN in the case of those who are rescued.
Quote:
HP: God in His wisdom chose not to simply send the Messiah from the garden to establish his offer of mercy, but rather chose to utilize a schoolmaster as the chosen means to establish the law for a period of time

BR: Hint: the "shoolmaster" is STILL leading the lost to a condition where they see themselves as NEEDING rescue from the penalty of the law. The Law did not END it's schoolmaster role at Calvary according to Gal 3 it only ends that role for the INDIVIDUAL when that PERSON "comes to FAITH".

HP: The law, ‘as a sacrificial system,’ has been abolished once for all having been nailed to the cross. No man is under that system, nor can be as a means to salvation. The law, as touching moral commandments, obviously is still in effect as long as we remain as humans in this world, saint and sinner alike. The only time it can be said in a sense that we are ‘not under the law,’ is in the sense spoken of when we are in willing obedience to its demands. As such the law has nothing to say to us. It does not condemn us fro we are found living in agreement to it. The law, as a schoolmaster system in it ceremonial aspects, has indeed been abolished, once for all. Certainly we all can gain insight into God and His requirements of us as we contemplate in retrospect that sacrificial system.

BR: As we saw in Heb 11 and the giants of FAITH in the O.T --

Since you are rejecting the "savior of the WORLD" in the O.T and claiming He only exists in the N.T -- A few texts to disabuse you of that notion sir.

HP: If you desire to have honest discourse, you can stop with the diatribe of paper ducks as we see here. I have never nor would I disagree that there is one Savior of the world, Jesus Christ the Righteous. Your remark is a nothing short of a fallacious and totally unjust assertion in light of what I believe and have stated.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What was the meaning of the veil in the temple? Why was it rent in twain? What significance did the unrent veil have for those in the OT and the rent vail of the NT?

 

[BobRyan]

1. The OT veil did not exist until Mt Sinai.
2. The OT veil represented the fact that the promised sacrifice for sin (the only REAL one that there is) had not yet come IN time.
3. God points out in Romans 4 -- that He counts those things "that are not AS THOUGH they are" HENCE Elijah, Enoch IN heaven fully forgiven Pre-cross.

Hence Christ's statements all during His ministry "your sins ARE forgiven".

Hence Heb 11 calling ALL the saints of the OT as "pleasing to God" living BY FAITH - walking as born-again saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: You have never established by one text properly that all have received the salvation message. That is the question and the question in which you seem always to have scripture to indicate but which in reality have nothing the least to show support for your novel idea, save in the regions of your own imagination.

False. I established beyond all reasonable doubt that the good news has gone to ALL in ALL time using Paul's argument in Romans 10 where HE asks your quesitons and THEN gives you the correct answer.

"Surely they have never heard have they? INDEED THEY HAVE".

You seem to avoid this point at every possible turn.

But it fully answers what you claim to be unnanswered.

HP: God in His wisdom chose not to simply send the Messiah from the garden to establish his offer of mercy, but rather chose to utilize a schoolmaster as the chosen means to establish the law for a period of time



HP: The law, ‘as a sacrificial system,’ has been abolished once for all having been nailed to the cross.

Wrong again.

1. God DID open the protoevangelian to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve - Cain and Abel were being led to offer sacrifices and trust in the coming Messiah -- that would be ALL HUMANITY from day 1 after the fall.
2. God DID provide His Son as the solution "from the foundation of the World".
3. Gal 3 DOES NOT say "The law was a schoolmaster UNTIL Christ died on the cross" as you have supposed. Rather it REMAINS "holding ALL accountable before God" (Rom 3, Gal 3) EVEN to this very day "UNTIL" that person "Comes to FAITH" Gal 3.

You keep ignoring what does not fit your bias.

4. Col 2 DOES NOT say that the law of sacrifices was nailed to the cross - it says that "OUR CERTIFICATE OF DEBT" was nailed to the cross. You consistently try to replace the DEBT owed -- the DEBT paid -- with the Law of God ITSELF but Paul shows that to be dead wrong.

'Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? GOD forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3;31.

"The WHOLE WORLD is held accountable" even to this VERY day according to Rom 3 and Gal3 by the LAW of God.

If showing the very core of where you have made mistakes in your thinking is not "honest discourse" then what is?? Pretending not to notice?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Any doubt that in the OT God really did "So love the World" is removed when paying actual attention to the texts already given here -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1137098#post1137098

(And now... back to the kinder gentler form)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR
""Surely they have never heard have they? INDEED THEY HAVE".

GE
It does not say every person who ever lived has heard, first point.
Next point. What is it that was "heard in all the earth unto the ends of the earth" - you yourself agrgue it was "the Word of God" (17) as the Law - which is able only to condemn, because, third point, there is no law "That, if a man doeth those things he shall live thereby" (5).
So yes, there is no single man who has lived who has not come under the condemnation of the Law or Word of God.
Conclusion: There remains only the lost world after the Law. The Law is not the Gospel, because the Gospel is the Word of God as it saves some, but leaves unsaved whom God willed not to save.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This how BR confirms what I say above, and contradicts himself everywhere he ever speaks, "'Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? GOD forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3;31. "The WHOLE WORLD is held accountable" even to this VERY day according to Rom 3 and Gal3 by the LAW of God."

 

[BobRyan]

BR
""Surely they have never heard have they? INDEED THEY HAVE".

GE
It does not say every person who ever lived has heard, first point.

Or you could simply pay attention to the details in the text provided.

Rom 10
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

(Ps 19 is quoted here)

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

Ps 19 The full text is as follows

1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (AGAIN) to NATURE's voice in DECLARING the
truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and Gentile) DID HEAR" - fulfilling the
condition --
Vs 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they?
Indeed they have;

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: I established beyond all reasonable doubt that the good news has gone to ALL in ALL time using Paul's argument in Romans 10 where HE asks your quesitons and THEN gives you the correct answer.

"Surely they have never heard have they? INDEED THEY HAVE".

You seem to avoid this point at every possible turn.

HP: For starters, who is the ‘they’ in verse 18? If you are going to make this verse walk on all four legs for your argument, I desire proof other than BR says so. If a sound goes into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world, could that possibly be figurative language of the territory the apostles had gone in Palestine and or the Roman Empire? Was not that ‘their world?’ Even then, if you can believe that even everyone literally in those two close areas had heard the gospel message you have a better imagination than do I. Could the ‘they’ the apostle spoke of be the Jews that had heard the message but had not either understood the message of faith that had been preached to them or those Jews that had rejected the message of faith as foreign to the system Moses had told them would grant to the eternal life? Possibly re-reading verse 1 would shed some light on the world the apostle was directing his remarks.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: For starters, who is the ‘they’ in verse 18? If you are going to make this verse walk on all four legs for your argument, I desire proof other than BR says so.

Paul makes the argument that we can be assured that "they have heard" "INDEED they HAVE" and we are sure of that because of the REAL and pervasive truth of Ps 19 - being actually true.

Simple - just follow HIS logic in arguing the point.


Exercise for the Reader --

1. Read the texts given here
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1137563&postcount=95
2. Are the texts written by Me? AM I author of scripture?
3. Follow Paul's argument for WHY we should conclude that THEY HAVE HEARD? What is HIS argument? IN the text?
4. How pervasive does the text CLAIM to be?
5. What mechanism is appealed to IN the text to assure us of the far reaching pervasive nature of the message?
in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Paul makes the argument that we can be assured that "they have heard" "INDEED they HAVE" and we are sure of that because of the REAL and pervasive truth of Ps 19 - being actually true.

HP: Speaking of avoiding an argument BR. Let me ask you again, who are the ‘they’ mentioned?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR, You hold the world record for the long jump! Verses 14-18 speaks of the exceptions that did hear the Gospel preached to them - the Gospel in the Gospel Era. Actually this proclamation starts being argued by Paul in verse 12 already - There is (NOW NO LONGER) any difference between the Greek and the Jew etc. It says absolutely NO word about all times and all individuals who ever dwelt the earth!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You of course also, BR, are registered in the Guinueas for the thickest skin!