our baptist Church Now officially belives Sign Gifts still operate!

[freeatlast]

I have to agree with DHK that the sign gifts have stopped at least for all general purposes. However by saying that I do not mean that one of them, several of them or even all of them cannot be revisited by the Spirit if He sees fit on a given occasion, but those times are rare.
So I think it would be improper to suggest or hold that the gifts are still in operation today as a general consensus.
Also for any church to hold that the gifts still operating as they did in the early church is to close ones mind and reasoning to actual proof. When was the last time you saw anyone raised from the dead, healed on the spot, or speak in a known language that they did not learn? It just is not happening even in those churches that claim the gifts have not ended.

 

[righteousdude2]

Why Would Those Gifts...

...Cease? It makes sense to me that if all the other gifts and ordinances of the NT are utilized within the body, that the gifts would be available to those who choose to believe.

I am totally against the name-it-claim and prosperity teaching folks, but I have no problems with any of the gifts being used so long as they are not disruptive to the flow of the service, or given precedence over the lifting up of Jesus.

We all believe in healing. So why do we have trouble with, let's say a person giving a word of prophecy? Alternatively, speaking in tongues as long as there is a rational explanation in our common language following the word, is not a problem either.

All gifts must be used in accordance to the strict teachings of the Word, and the buck must stop with the pastor. In other words, the pastor must remain in charge, be able to recognize that which is of the Spirit and meant for the edification of the saints, and that which is pure, gibberish and disruptive to the flow of the service and the Holy Ghost.

There is nothing more heavenly and beautiful than hearing a congregation singing as one in the language of the Spirit and Angels. It is highly uplifting, and spiritually charged to the point that it motivates the remainder of the service, including the spoken word. Faith becomes energised, and where faith is high, prayers are answered, and lifes are changed. :applause:

I was once in a service that was given over to praise and worship. The music went on for over an hour, and when it came to winding down, hundreds of people went forward to the altar for prayers. The movement of the Spirit through that praise and worship saw folks being saved. Hearts changed, and healing manifested, and other needs for healing being started. raying:

Not a word was spoken from the pulpit. The pastor allowed the music and praise to move and continue, and the result was unbelievable. It was like a Billy Graham altar call without Billy and a message. raying:

We need to know that the Holy Ghost moves in ways we will never understand completely, but if the word tells us that there will be continuous singing around the throne of God in heaven, then singing and praise on earth must have its place too!

Of course, these are merely my opinion and view, and I hold no animosity toward anyone with a difference of opinion than mine. I just believe what I believe, and you have known me for over four years now, and I've never once proclaimed my views like I shared today.

I say that what is happening in that church mentioned in the OP should be their view, and it should be respected, not condemned or judged. To each their own, so long as it is in line with His Word!

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[DHK]

...Cease? It makes sense to me that if all the other gifts and ordinances of the NT are utilized within the body, that the gifts would be available to those who choose to believe.

We all believe in healing. So why do we have trouble with, let's say a person giving a word of prophecy? Alternatively, speaking in tongues as long as there is a rational explanation in our common language following the word, is not a problem either.

Healing is one thing. The Biblical gift of healing is quite another.
Give an example of the gift of healing that is operational today.

I can give you one in the NT.
It is in Acts 5:16--Peter healed ALL who came to him, no matter what infirmity they had. That doesn't happen today.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Then leave your church.

Why should he leave??

 

[J.D.]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what Paul meant when he said, "Surely the signs of an apostle were worked among you..."

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

Space aliens walk the face of this earth. Do you believe me? You would want me to give you at least some proof wouldn't you?

You have made a claim that certain things are happening. Give proof of your claim. Where is the evidence?

Thousands, if not millions of people have testified...from personal experience... as to the existance of these biblically identified signs.

Do you believe that every one of these christian people are lying?

 

[DHK]

DHK...



Thousands, if not millions of people have testified...from personal experience... as to the existance of these biblically identified signs.

Do you believe that every one of these christian people are lying?

Perhaps you are deceived also. Or you didn't understand my illustrations. I didn't say a thing about UFO's if that is what you are referring to. I used an illustration. If you are foolish enough to try and pick apart a supposed illustration I guess you can try. An illustration doesn't have a lot of documented substance to it. And you don't have a clue of what kind of "space aliens walking the face of this earth" that I was referring to, do you?

How can you question an illustration if you don't know what the illustration is about?

 

[DHK]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what Paul meant when he said, "Surely the signs of an apostle were worked among you..."

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:3-4)

The apostles, more than the others, were able to perform signs (miracles), and exercise the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. The gospel message of grace was new. It was a sign to the Jews that this message was of God. They were the messengers of God and these signs authenticated them as the messengers of God and that their message was of God.

For example, tongues especially is explained here:
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:21-22)

Tongues are for a sign for the Jews (vs.21)
Tongues are for a sign for the unbelieving Jew especially (vs.22)

 

[righteousdude2]

Ooops! Did I Step on Your Spiritual Toe?

Healing is one thing. The Biblical gift of healing is quite another.
Give an example of the gift of healing that is operational today.

I can give you one in the NT.
It is in Acts 5:16--Peter healed ALL who came to him, no matter what infirmity they had. That doesn't happen today.

I didn't mean to offend you DHK. Nor did I mean to challenge what you have come to believe. I was simply sharing one of those once in a life time events.

The truth is, I've been blessed to be in a place where His presence has been revealed in a very real sense. The problem is, you'd have to have been there, and because you haven't been there, you have the choice of refuting my report, or believing it. I do know what I've been blessed to be a part of two once in a one-on-one moments (you can read about this special moment in my book: Prodigal Daze), and the other among the presence of at least 4,000 people. :godisgood:

Because of what I have personally experienced and seen, I do believe that the gifts are still available for today's church, and through faith, those gifts can be accessed to lift up Jesus and bring glory to God.

I have been to services where a great many people went away healed, saved, and changed (in the direction of their walk). One such service was at Eagles Nest, Tustin, CA in the late 1980s.

As I said in my post, the praise and worship team was moving in the Spirit, and it seemed that all 4,000 people in attendance were caught up in the praise and worship.

Instead of breaking in to take the offering, talk about upcoming events and preached the sermon, Pastor Gary obediently yielded to the moving of the Holy Ghost and allowed the music to continue, and as the praise and worship reached 90 minutes, I noticed that people were making their way to the altar. Within a few minutes, the altar was four of five deep, and people were being saved, healed and moved to walk closer to Jesus.

The next Sunday, Pastor Gary commented that in his 25 years of preaching, he'd never seen this happen. He reported that his pastoral staff and ministry team were overwhelmed with the multitudes that flooded the altars. He shared that without a word being preached, people came forward to be saved. Others were reporting healing of ailments. And others were turning their vices over to God and drawing closer to their Savior. There were people with an endless stream of tears. There were tears of joy, and wonder. And it was easy to see in the faces of those who responded to the moving of the Holy Ghost (during that 90 minutes of more of pure praise and worship) the the presence of God made a special visit to His Children.

I had never seen this before, and have never seen it duplicated again, but it must have been close to what Peter writes about. And it came about as a result of simply singing praise songs to the Father, and worshiping Him through the words of those songs.

It was a spiritual energizing event, and even though I may never again see this phenomena, to witness it once in a life time was an honor. You would had to have been there. And likewise you'll have to take my word on this one. IT DID TAKE PLACE.

And it came about because this pastor was into allowing the gifts of the Spirit to be free within each service.

I guess you could say that it was a hodgepodge of miraculous events, but it was, nonetheless, a very special moment. :godisgood:

Thanks for your feedback. All I can do is report what I was part of on that Sunday morning. PTL! :applause:

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul,

There is nothing more heavenly and beautiful than hearing a congregation singing as one in the language of the Spirit and Angels

This is unbiblical nonsense that opens the door for error. Angels as messengers spoke in the language of the people they minister to. The rhyming gibberish you are speaking of is no language at all. To make the claim that this is okay...then in the next sentence say the pastor must determine what is biblical or not...is to have already let the horse out the barn.

the praise and worship team was moving in the Spirit

Where was this in the bible....?

Because of what I have personally experienced and seen, I do believe that the gifts are still available for today's church[/QUOTE

What the scripture says is what matters...not your "personal experience"

Pastor Gary obediently yielded to the moving of the Holy Ghost and allowed the music to continue, and as the praise and worship reached 90 minutes,

Where was The Holy Ghost moving to?

the multitudes that flooded the altars

A Nt church does not have a physical altar.....but I guess if doctrine does not matter...you can just make up the story as you move along.

He shared that without a word being preached, people came forward to be saved.

no word preached......doctrine despised...yup have heard this before...not in scripture however.....everytime sign gifts took place the word was preached.

And it came about because this pastor was into allowing the gifts of the Spirit to be free within each service.

I guess you could say that it was a hodgepodge of miraculous events, but it was, nonetheless, a very special moment

Or not.......

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK...



Thousands, if not millions of people have testified...from personal experience... as to the existance of these biblically identified signs.

Do you believe that every one of these christian people are lying?

It is not happening AIC.....just not happening.Some might be deceived, some given to emotional excess, and some lying, some not even christians.

 

[Iconoclast]

What biblical 'proof' do you have that those Gifts of the HS actually fully passed away?

Also, we take cue from the Apostle in Hebrews, who stated in Chatper 2 that the Apostles DID already confirmed the Gospel by signs and wonders, past tense verb, so the Hebrews guidelines would be to those after the Apostoloc Age!

So the "sign gifts" already at that time were transistioned to being no l;onger reevelatory in nature, but as to the local Body, with words of endification/encouragement/direction/wisdom etc from the HS to the believers!

Hebrews 2 taught that the gifts were passing away not continuing....you have it absolutely backwards.
There was no transition to "non-revelatory sign gifts"...that is unbiblical nonsense. You have not answered my post about which sign gifts are here today.....you are trying to re-define the actual signs of an apostle because you have no answer to offer here......
you are holding out for the secret prayer language which does not actually exist.

 

[Iconoclast]

correct

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:3-4)

The apostles, more than the others, were able to perform signs (miracles), and exercise the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. The gospel message of grace was new. It was a sign to the Jews that this message was of God. They were the messengers of God and these signs authenticated them as the messengers of God and that their message was of God.


For example, tongues especially is explained here:
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:21-22)

Tongues are for a sign for the Jews (vs.21)
Tongues are for a sign for the unbelieving Jew especially (vs.22)

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup::applause:

The Apostles were promised to be guided into all truth......they were , and we have all that pertains to life and godliness in the word now.................

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

...Cease? It makes sense to me that if all the other gifts and ordinances of the NT are utilized within the body, that the gifts would be available to those who choose to believe.

I am totally against the name-it-claim and prosperity teaching folks, but I have no problems with any of the gifts being used so long as they are not disruptive to the flow of the service, or given precedence over the lifting up of Jesus.

We all believe in healing. So why do we have trouble with, let's say a person giving a word of prophecy? Alternatively, speaking in tongues as long as there is a rational explanation in our common language following the word, is not a problem either.

All gifts must be used in accordance to the strict teachings of the Word, and the buck must stop with the pastor. In other words, the pastor must remain in charge, be able to recognize that which is of the Spirit and meant for the edification of the saints, and that which is pure, gibberish and disruptive to the flow of the service and the Holy Ghost.

There is nothing more heavenly and beautiful than hearing a congregation singing as one in the language of the Spirit and Angels. It is highly uplifting, and spiritually charged to the point that it motivates the remainder of the service, including the spoken word. Faith becomes energised, and where faith is high, prayers are answered, and lifes are changed. :applause:

I was once in a service that was given over to praise and worship. The music went on for over an hour, and when it came to winding down, hundreds of people went forward to the altar for prayers. The movement of the Spirit through that praise and worship saw folks being saved. Hearts changed, and healing manifested, and other needs for healing being started. raying:

Not a word was spoken from the pulpit. The pastor allowed the music and praise to move and continue, and the result was unbelievable. It was like a Billy Graham altar call without Billy and a message. raying:

We need to know that the Holy Ghost moves in ways we will never understand completely, but if the word tells us that there will be continuous singing around the throne of God in heaven, then singing and praise on earth must have its place too!

Of course, these are merely my opinion and view, and I hold no animosity toward anyone with a difference of opinion than mine. I just believe what I believe, and you have known me for over four years now, and I've never once proclaimed my views like I shared today.

I say that what is happening in that church mentioned in the OP should be their view, and it should be respected, not condemned or judged. To each their own, so long as it is in line with His Word!

Pastor Paul :type:

Paul....I completely & whole heartedly agree....thank you for your commentary

 

[Old Union Brother]

Thanks righteousdude2 for your 2 posts. It kind of sounds like what happened last Sunday at my home church. There were shouts of glory to God before singing started the Holy Spirit had a free discourse among His people.

 

[convicted1]

Thanks righteousdude2 for your 2 posts. It kind of sounds like what happened last Sunday at my home church. There were shouts of glory to God before singing started the Holy Spirit had a free discourse among His people.

Thank you Bro. Jeff for sharing this with me. God IS good to His children!! I am glad that your sacrament service went well!! There's nothing like humbling yourself down to wash your Brethern's feet, is there?? Love you Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

PS Please PM me and tell me who preached at how the whole service went, as if I don't already know how the service went!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thanks righteousdude2 for your 2 posts. It kind of sounds like what happened last Sunday at my home church. There were shouts of glory to God before singing started the Holy Spirit had a free discourse among His people.

Praise God....now thats what Im talking about! :jesus:

 

[Tom Bryant]

There seems to be an unspoken idea that because a person believes that the sign gifts are not for today they never really understand the amazing experience of the Holy Spirit controlling and overwhelming a church service.

That is just wrong. We have felt His moving. We have felt overwhelmed by His presence. We see His power expressed in people coming under the conviction of sin and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. We see His power when a believer understands the Word of God and uses the sword of the Spirit in his life and testimony. We experience Him when we worship Him in a Sunday service or throughout the week in our private devotional time.

 

[convicted1]

There seems to be an unspoken idea that because a person believes that the sign gifts are not for today they never really understand the amazing experience of the Holy Spirit controlling and overwhelming a church service.

That is just wrong. We have felt His moving. We have felt overwhelmed by His presence. We see His power expressed in people coming under the conviction of sin and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. We see His power when a believer understands the Word of God and uses the sword of the Spirit in his life and testimony. We experience Him when we worship Him in a Sunday service or throughout the week in our private devotional time.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There seems to be an unspoken idea that because a person believes that the sign gifts are not for today they never really understand the amazing experience of the Holy Spirit controlling and overwhelming a church service.

That is just wrong. We have felt His moving. We have felt overwhelmed by His presence. We see His power expressed in people coming under the conviction of sin and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. We see His power when a believer understands the Word of God and uses the sword of the Spirit in his life and testimony. We experience Him when we worship Him in a Sunday service or throughout the week in our private devotional time.

Oh brother, Ive gone to too many dead churches to totally believe that.....again I ask what are we afraid of? When you put it in your constitution that gifts are no longer existent, are you not telling God to pass over this church for a HS visitation.....I think the answer far to often is YES....that's what we are saying......ya see, we are scared of those Penocostalist fellers coming in here with their tongues & faith healing. They believe that by loosing the reigns that they become vulnerable to the quacks & the fanatics and I sympathize. Anyone who has ever read the history of revivals will know this danger and lack of balance it possibly could create.

Conversely you can also have dead orthodoxy as well as dead formality. The great danger you will then confront is that the quenching and resisting the Spirit, thereby standing against the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit. Where will that bring you....perhaps to a dead church....again the balancing act. LOL

Now Im not a pastor, just a casual observer & one that has spent much time looking for a church that blends the two.....Ive yet to find it (then again I live in New Jersey...LOL)