Our people in Heaven

I am a traditionalist and upon death, the person is disembodied, but that is only temporary. When Christ comes again, those who have died will resurrect physically, and that will be their permanent state. A complete person is body and soul together.

 

Are you saying that this is what Christ meant when He said "Lazarus sleeps I go to awaken HIM" in John 11??
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Obviously.

The problem is that the PERSON sleeps - not your finger, not your leg not your neck - "the person" as Paul says "THOSE who ARE asleep" and "those WHO have fallen asleep" in 1Thess 4.

It amazes me that each inconvenient detail in the text must be highlighted or people will ignore them all!

Not me. Almost never quote it.

I do like the NKJV though.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I am pretty sure I already posted that -

 

Here is a good link on this thread for those that want to avoid all the inconvenient details of 1Thess 4 but they just need someone to point out in bold text which parts of the text to ignore.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3798/2.html#000016

In the same way - those looking to ignore all the inconvenient facts of 2Cor 5 pointing away from the concept of the "living dead in Christ" - but looking for someone to highlight in bold text those parts of the text to ignore -- notice this 3 post sequence on this thread.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3798/2.html#000024

 

I find it interesting that when you speak to RC members about prayers for the dead and to the dead (Those that 2Mac 12 calls "The dead" and those that Paul in 1Thess 4 calls "The dead in Christ") - they always come back with an argument of why they believe the living should contact the dead because the dead are so undead, so non-sleeping, so "alive".

In Christ,

Bob

 

you are switching context. IF 2Mac 12 is all about "DEAD BODIES" and the point is that "DEAD BODIES SLEEP instead of turning to dust" and "DEAD BODIES are called THE DEAD" then when they pray "FOR THE DEAD" they are praying for "DEAD BODIES".

You can not have it both ways simply because your traditions needs some weaselege here.

you have to build a sound supportable argument that actually holds water!

In Christ,

Bob

 

TO EVERYBODY, PLEASE READ THIS!


Absent from the Body

Upon what subject does Paul treat in 2 Cor. 5:1-8?
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Cor. 5:1.
NOTE. - In this verse the present and future condition of the believer is spoken of .

While we are here "in our earthly house," in "this tabernacle," that is in this present mortal state, what is our condition?
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven." "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." 2 Cor. 5:2, 4.

Where else does the apostle express the same fact?
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Rom. 8:22.

How many conditions, or states of being, does the apostle bring to view?
Three: First, a positive state in this present life clothed with "our earthly house" (2 Cor. 5:1.), "this tabernacle" (2 Cor. 5:4); second, a negative state, called in verse 3 "unclothed" or "naked," that is, when in death, in the grave; third, another positive condition, when mortality is swallowed up of life, when we are clothed upon with our house from heaven (verses 2, 4).

Which one of these conditions did the apostle wait for and desire?
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven." 2 Cor. 5:2.

What disclaimer does he utter concerning the second or middle state?
"Not for that we would be unclothed." 2 Cor. 5:4.

How is it proved that Paul looked forward to the resurrection, when he expressed a desire to be clothed upon with the house from heaven?
By the parallel text in Rom. 8:23: "And not only thy, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

When is the body to be redeemed?
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel. and with the trump of God; and dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16. See Phil. 3:20, 21.

When is mortality to be swallowed up of life?
"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor. 15:51-53.
NOTE.- To be "naked," or "unclothed," must refer to one's condition in death. But how can it be said that one is unclothed, if he is a conscious, disembodied spirit, instantly enters the heavenly abode at death? It can be plainly seen that if an immortal soul is the "house from heaven," when the "earthly" house, the body, has been redeemed, an individual would have two houses, one more than he would have occasion for. Then again, if the second house is the supposed immortal soul, and one had it now in possession in his body, it could not be true that it is, "eternal in the heavens." On the whole it is evident that the apostle is here treating of the future redeemed body.

If the house from heaven is the future redeemed immortal body, how can it be said that, "we have" it?
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 John 5:11. Hence, "he that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12.

When, only, is a person fitted to be present with the Lord?
Not till he is redeemed from all that is mortal and corruptible. 1 Cor. 15:50; 1 Thess. 4:17.

To what condition, then, does the apostle refer by the words (2 Cor. 5:6), "At home in the body?"
To the first condition spoken of in verse 1.

To what condition does he refer by the expression, "To be present with the Lord?"
To the third condition. They are not necessarily immediately connected. Some time may elapse between them, as we have shown.

 

Im not Bible Scholar, for which I am thankful, but I just cant help but noticing that many of you seem to strangely grasp onto one Bible verse or passage, such as the "Absent from the Body, Present with the Lord" and hang onto that, even though its so plain to see there are practically dozens of other Bible verses that clearly tells us that when a person dies he is asleep in the grave till Jesus comes. But instead of thinking "Hey, MAYBE I need to take another look at this passage that doesnt seem to go along with all the others and re-think it through... like, MAYBE I am misunderstanding it!

But instead, you just are willing to IGNORE all the scores of other Bible verses.

It seems like someone running around in those old fashioned pajamas and they are totally unware that their rear end is hanging out. LOL! You know, the jammies with the trap door in the back and the buttons?

It just strikes me as weird that people could with a straight face flat out ignore all those many many other Bible verses, jujst because you WANT the Bible to say something.


Claudia

 

...and these remarks where people say "well I dont know about you but you can stay in the grave, waiting around, Im going straight to heaven!"

Well that isnt any bible proof of anything, and wishing doesnt make it so.

Besides that, the Bible says clearly also that when we go to the grave and wait, it will have seemed like we are there for just as long as a "twinkling of an eye" because we arent conscious of any passage of time.

so that whole arguement is pointless.

For Job, who says he would be asleep in the grave, for Paul who says he is sleeping in the grave, for David who the Bible says has not ascended into the heavens, and for me... and for you, it will all seem like for every one of us just a mere twinking of an eye and we will awaken to the second coming of Christ!

Claudia

 

In addition, NO we are not like the Catholic church who believes in purgatory, thats stupid. We know there is no more chance after death to make things right with God, at that point its OVER!

The truth is that this false doctrine that claims the dead arent really dead IS THE VERY FOUNDATIONAL TEACHING OF SPIRITUALISM.

It cane right out of the Roman Catholic Catholic Church and is the very reason they go around trying to ask dead saints to pray for them, includng the Virgin Mary.

so thats a very poor attempt to try to connect us with Roman Catholicism, when the truth is Martin Luther himself believed when you die you go to the grave to sleep till the second coming of Christ.

Gosh I cant see how anybody could think you go straight to heaven or hell... with all the Bible verses that state otherwise.


Claudia

 

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Thats why. Rich man in hell looked up and saw the poor man in heaven.

 

PROTESTANTS CONNECTING THEMSELVES WITH ROMAN CATHOLICISM AND SPIRITUALISM

The Catholic Church teaches the dead are alive and can be contacted, including dead saints and the Virgin Mary. Protestants who have adopted this idea from Catholicism do not realize that they are being set up for a great deception in doing so. God is trying to warn them of their danger but who is willing to listen to the warning?

Martin Luther realized that the dead are in their graves asleep till the second coming of Christ:

The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255. Commenting on the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes, that the dead know not anything, the Reformer says: "Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152.

WHAT WAS THE DEVIL'S FIRST LIE?

Genesis 3:4
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die."
Revelation 12:9
"That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan."
Satan told Eve that sin would not bring death. "Ye shall not surely die," he said.


WHY DID THE DEVIL LIE TO EVE ABOUT DEATH? -Could this subject be more important than many think?

It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt- Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor- I Samuel 28:3-25; Sorcerers- Daniel 2:2; A certain damsel- Acts 16:16-18.)


In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery- as he did in Daniel's day- to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Rev 18:23: And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy (Babylon’s) sorceries were all nations deceived.

Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, the Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.

DO DEVILS REALLY WORK MIRACLES?

Revelation 16:14
"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles."
Matthew 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
Yes indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13,14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23,24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic world revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God's elect will not be deceived.


God's people will know from an earnest study of the Word that the dead are dead, not alive. Spirits of the dead do not exist. Therefore, God's people will reject all miracle workers and teachers to claim to receive special 'light' or work miracles by contacting spirits of the dead. And God's people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

BACK IN MOSES' DAY WHAT DID GOD COMMAND SHOULD BE DONE TO PEOPLE WHO TAUGHT THAT THE DEAD WERE ALIVE?

Leviticus 20:27
"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones."
God insisted that wizards and others with "familiar spirits" (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

 

the dead sleep till the resurrection OF THE DEAD.


don't ya just love prepositional phrases.

 

What a GREAT text!!

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

That is the EXACT wording that MAKES your case brother!!

How much more umph your argument WOULD have had IF That text had actually BEEN in the Bible!!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

BTW - since this is the SECOND time in as many weeks that a poster here as invented the text

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

WHERE do you suppose they are all getting this fabrication? How do they all know "to make it up"??

 

Just because we traditionalists believe in a conscious afterlife between physical death and resurrection doesn't mean we embrace spiritism. Spiritism is the religion based on conjuring spirits, human or otherwise, usually to determine the future. It's a type of divination, which is forbidden in the Bible.

Furthermore, the literal rendering of II Corinthians 5:8 is: we are of good cheer then and think it good rather to go away from home out of the body and to come home to the Lord. Literal Greek English New Testament by Alfred Marshall.

That passage doesn't support soul sleep. You go out of the body, not body and soul sleeping in the ground until Judgment Day, and come home to the Lord. Where is the Lord? In Heaven!

 

Communion with the dead is the basis and foundation of the RCC practice of "prayers to the Dead".

Paul (by contrast) calls the Dead "The DEAD in Christ" and "those who have fallen asleep".

I prefer the Bible on this one.

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

..

Indeed God's people had the task of "wiping out such practices" -- well said Fr Ken Ryan!!

I prefer the Bible!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Comminucation with Mary-- talking to the Dead

Christians look upon the practice of prayer to the dead as spiritualism, a practice that God clearly does not approve of.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12, "When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."

The Vatican, of course, holds to a different view -- as evidenced by these words from an old Catholic catechism:

Q. Does not the invocation of saints resemble spiritualism?

A. The invocation of saints does not resemble spiritualism. Spiritualists pretend to hear the voices of the dead and to learn hidden things from them out of curiosity.

Q. Do we expect to hear the voices of the dead when we pray to the saints?

A. We pray to the saints in spirit and do not expect to hear their voices. We ask them to pray for us in heaven. (Roderick MacEachen, Complete Catechism of Christian Doctrine, Catholic Book Co:Wheeling (1911), p. 161)

Interesting that the catechist would write that Catholics do not expect to hear the voices of the dead saints they pray to. Mary is a saint, in addition to being Queen of Heaven and Earth. Catholics surely offer more prayers to her than to God Himself, and some of those who prayer to Saint Mary indeed do expect to hear her voice. Recently, the godmaker pope canonized two of the children who prayed to Mary at Fatima and expected to hear from her directly. And the gang at Medjugorje certainly listen to her communications to them. Every Thursday, Catholics gather in St. Joseph's Catholic Church in Emmittsburg, Maryland to receive the thoughts Saint Mary communicates to Gianna Talone Sullivan. For four years, Saint Mary would visit Nancy Fowler at her Conyers, Georgia farm and pass along messages that Nancy would then share with the tens of thousands of Catholics who gathered every October to hear what the BVM had said through Nancy.

More Catholic word games. Anyone who has been involved with RCC worship and practice surely must know that more prayers are offered to Mary and other so-called saints than to God the Father or our Savior Jesus Christ. If relative importance in the Catholic scheme of things can be determined by such things as frequency and number of prayers offered, then Mary is far, far more important in the Catholic hierarchy than any Person of the Trinity.

 

Unfortunately, Protestants who have adopted this false doctrine that says the dead arent really dead are, in so doing, opening wide the door to spiritualism.. which in reality is holding communication with demonic spirits. Because you cant talk to the dead... they are DEAD. Its no wonder the Catholic Priests find it necessary to do their EXORCISMS to cast out demons every time they turn around, well gee, I wonder why? They invite demonic possession by praying to the dead.

Now on television every time you turn around you see people going to the grave of their dead relative and talking to them, asking advice as if their Aunt Matilda could actually hear them.

Satan is preparing the world for a huge deception and Protest-ants who ought to be PROTESTING these false lies from the Catholic Church have instead adopted this falsehood about the dead being alive.

They already now have the foundation laid for Spiritualism and it is going to be a huge temptation when "Mary" says something to the world and some will be preforming miracles right before their eyes to "prove" they are from God... The Bible warns there will be many false miracles just before the second coming of Christ. Protestants now dont realize it but they are setting themselves up for the deception just by swallowing this spiritualistic lie from the Catholic Church.

Its too bad they dont see where they are headed,


Even now, people in the New Age Movement are claiming to conjure up Jesus, the Apostle Paul, etc (they call it "Channeling") and in these supposed communications Jesus and the Apostle Paul and telling them they no longer have to keep the 10 Commandments (wow what a big surprise) ... and every other thing the New Age Movement is doing, it has been finding its way into the Christian Churches at amazing speed, of course they put a "Christian" spin on everything though, new package, but same old lies.

Isaiah 8:
19: And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

2 Cor. 11
13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

New Age Spiritualist David Spangler, (he'd make a good modern-day "Protestant" Preacher cant tell much difference)

'We can take all the Scriptures and all the teachings, and all the tablets and all the Laws, and all the marshmallows and have a jolly good bonfire and marshmallow roast, because that's all they are worth. Once you are the law, once you are the truth, you do not need it externally represented for you.' -David Spangler, 'Emergence: Rebirth of the Sacred', Findhorn Publications, pg. 144


Claudia

[ April 23, 2006, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]