Our people in Heaven

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
DHK,

Now why did you have to say that to me about Ellen White? What does that have to do with anything?

It seems like all of you just use that as a cheap shot, why would you do something like that?

The Bible verses say the dead are asleep in the graves, what does that have to do with Ellen White?

Claudia

The doctrine of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is a man-made doctrine. I don't know when it first came into existence. Perhaps it was Ellen G. White that invented it. Either way it is one of the distinguishing marks of the SDA, Ellen G. White's doctrine, not of the Bible.
Thus it is not a cheap shot.
DHK

 

[Claudia_T]

Maybe Im not even understanding what "soul sleep" means, or at least what people think it means.

I dont really know what "state" someone is in while in the grave. I know the Bible says the dead when in the graves shall "hear His voice" like Lazarus did.

as far as the details go though, I dont know beond that. The bible says they dont know whats going on ,,,on earth, etc...

honestly though, Im just going by what I think the Bible says.

 

[BobRyan]

As it turns out - These texts are IN the Bible even though many insist "they are not".

Notice the "inconvenient details" as these texts show us "THE PERSON" that "falls asleep" while it is the "body parts" that decay and "return to dust"!

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Now for some NT text to be faithful ignored --

Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being even MORE awake and “Alive in Christ”. The contrast between what man’s tradition “needs” and what the Bible says here should be “instructive” for anyone who cares about the difference.

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.&gt;&gt;

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
…
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

1 Cor 11

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Exercise for the reader: Count the number of times the NT Bible writers speak of the PERSON as being "asleep" in the texts said "not to exist" that are listed above.

As you read those "not the bible texts" (as some have labeled them here) try to "imagine" how it is that man-made tradition could make you view these texts as "not the Bible".

What kind of koolaid would that be?

 

[Claudia_T]

this isnt fitting together in my mind... if your spirit is your breath and that goes back to God who gave it at death... and body plus spirit equals your soul... then how can you be "asleep" in the grave? yet it does say that we are asleep

it even says those who are asleep in the graves will hear His voice

that seems pretty confusing, actually.

But there is no way we can be "in heaven".. even so.. when we die.

 

[Claudia_T]

this thing is acting weird...

 

[BobRyan]

In Eccl 12 we see that "the spirit of mankind" goes to God at death. Since the "old tent" is not raised (see 2Cor 5:1-5) rather we are given an entirely NEW body "a heavenly one made eternal in the heavens) at the resurrection - we really don't "need" the decaying "Body parts" to come back. THE PERSON is the spirit that goes back to God. (In fact that spirit of all mankind goes back to God "who gave it").

That is the "essence" of the PERSON - it is "Who you are". The term for "grave" is Hades or Sheol (in the case of Dan 12 it is Sheol) which is the concept of the grave including more than the idea of "dirt and a hole" - it is the all that takes place at the death of the person - including the spirit of the person that returns to God.

The rotting flesh - the decaying "body parts" are not "sleeping". They are going to 'dust' - to "nothingness". That dust "is not asleep" neither does God have to go chasing your old "carbon atoms" to assemble you again at the resurrection. In 1Cor 15 Paul says that what you sow in the ground IS NOT what you reap.

You sow the mortal, decaying "going to nothing" body but what is raised is the PERSON with an IMMORTAL body MADE In heaven - eternal -- at the resurrection.

Often may hear an enthusiastic presentation about how people are nothing more than their flesh and they "cease to exist" when they are dead. But Christ claims they DO exist - but they are dormant - asleep. This can only be true of the "spirit that returns to God who gave it".

It is a mistake to "Go too far" in trying to prove the state of the dead "AS IF" we had "humanity in a test tube". The truth is we do not know the infinite mystery of God in how He preserves a human life THROUGH death and INTO the resurrection.

When you read Bible doctrine - often what you have is "boundary points" that you dare not go beyond. But that does not give you infinite knowledge about the mystery INSIDE those boundaries.

Clearly in the case of the nature of mankind - we have the "boundary points" that the person is "Asleep" the spirit "returns to God who gave it" and there is no activity being done by that person IN death. But adding a bunch of stuff about the person "not existing" should not be done.

Better to leave it as "The person is alseep" as Christ and the Bible writers state it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
As it turns out - These texts are IN the Bible even though many insist "they are not".

Notice the "inconvenient details" as these texts show us "THE PERSON" that "falls asleep" while it is the "body parts" that decay and "return to dust"!

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Now for some NT text to be faithful ignored --

Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being even MORE awake and “Alive in Christ”. The contrast between what man’s tradition “needs” and what the Bible says here should be “instructive” for anyone who cares about the difference.

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

Would you blame the doctrine of the trinity on the RCC also. They want to take credit for it anyway?

Just because the doctrine is Biblical, and the Catholic Church believes in it doesn't automatically make it wrong. In this case it is the SDA that is wrong. They have the wrong stand, the anti-Biblical stand. It is a non-issue with the RCC. So don't even bring them into the issue, or I'll just harp on Ellen G. White as the originator of soul sleep.

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

Let's go over this again, though I hate repeating myself over and over again. Paul is addressing the resurrection (of those that have gone before), those that have already dead. The resurrection always refers to the body unless you are a J.W., and hold to the ridiculous belief of a spirit resurrection (which doesn't exist). The resurrection always refers to the body, not the spirit. The dead in Christ are those that are "asleep" or dead, or those that are in the grave. That is, their bodies await the resurrection. This has nothing to do with the spirit of the body. It has nothing to do with soul sleep whatsoever (especially that no such doctrine exists). The dead in Christ are those who died before the believers that Paul was writing to. They had already been dead and buried. Their bodies were awaiting the resurrection, just as we all await the resurrection--dead or alive.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There are two resurrection: the just and the unjust. Lifeless bodies will not stand before Christ. The spirit will be reunited with the body. There is no soul sleep here. We all await the resurrection--every one of us.

1Thess 4:14-16

John 11:11-14

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Christ said: Lazarus sleeps. That is not different than what you posted. It seems like you lied. In other words the body of Lazarus was dead. His spirit had left him. He was dead and in the grave.
See 1Cor.11:30

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Because of their abuse of the Lord's table God judged them. Some were sick. Some were weak. And some dead. Every judgement affected the body. The bodies were dead, that is sleeping. The terms are the same. They refer to the bodies. Lazarus was dead, in the grave. His body was asleep, dead and buried. That is how people look upon a dead person--as a corpse, a dead person, as asleep, the appearance of being dead.

1Cor 15:16-20; 48-54; 1Cor.11:27-30

The quotation of these verses are meaningless without explanation. I believe them too. They point to the resurrection when our bodies not our spirits, will be raised.
Our spirits are in heaven with the Lord, as the Bible teaches.

What happened to the thief on the cross? Did Jesus lie? "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise? Did he mean his body, spirit or both. The obvious answer was just his spirit which disproves soul sleep right there.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
As it turns out - These texts are IN the Bible even though many insist "they are not".

Notice the "inconvenient details" as these texts show us "THE PERSON" that "falls asleep" while it is the "body parts" that decay and "return to dust"!

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Now for some NT text to be faithful ignored --

Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being even MORE awake and “Alive in Christ”. The contrast between what man’s tradition “needs” and what the Bible says here should be “instructive” for anyone who cares about the difference.

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

Originally posted by DHK:

Would you blame the doctrine of the trinity on the RCC also.

??? "nonsequitter"?

No - I would charge that those that DO such a thing have to follow your approach of "refuting enough scripture" that they can then claim the texts pointing to the trinity "don't exist".

Only in the case of "the Trinity" we don't actually SEE the words so offensive to those who reject it being used in SCRIPTURE - as we SEE the wording in the text above (about PEOPLE that "FALL asleep" at death being called THE DEAD in Christ) that is so offensive and so denied by those whose man-made traditions contradicts those texts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
I'll just harp on Ellen G. White as the originator of soul sleep.

Good idea. And then I will just keep "repeating" the NT texts that explicitly SPEAK to the PERSON being "ASLEEP" in death - so you can keep claiming those texts are all written by Ellen White!

I think we have a good system going here.

1Thess 4
:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Bob said --
Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the DEADN IN CHRIST at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives (PERSONS) who have died. (as opposed to "body parts" That are decaying)

In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ". (i.e. PERSONS not simply "body parts"

DHK
Let's go over this again, though I hate repeating myself over and over again. Paul is addressing the resurrection (of those that have gone before), those that have already dead. The resurrection always refers to the body

Paul points to the resurrection of the BODY for that PERSON as the ONLY HOPE for the saints! In other words He does NOT say "THEY ARE NOW EVER WITH THE LORD" in 1Thess 4 RATHER he directs us into the future - at the rapture of the church - at the FIRST resurrection - the resurrection of the just at the appearing of Christ and says "COMFORT one another with these words" stating the resurrection facts and adding "IN THIS WAY shall we EVER be WITH the LORD".

In the same way Christ points to that SAME event in John 14 "I WILL come again and RECEIVE you unto Myself that WHERE I am THERE you may be ALSO".

Never do se see "the DEAD in Christ are now EVER WITH the LORD".

(though we HAVE seen people post on this thread the MADE up idea that "TO BE DEAD is to BE WITH the Lord").

But as noted earlier - simply "making stuff up" is not the same thing as reading it from scripture.

DHK said
The dead in Christ are those that are "asleep" or dead, or those that are in the grave.

Is it your claim that the PERSON is in the grave - not just the decaying body parts????

Recall that you already stated that the PERSON is "asleep" in death.

You seem to be contradicting yourself - again.

DHK
That is, their bodies await the resurrection.

When you use the personnal pronoun "THEIR" you appear to be talking about the PERSON that you earlier stated as being "ASLEEP".

Is it your argument that the decaying "turning to dust" body parts are ASLEEP INSTEAD of the PERSON?

DHK
The dead in Christ are those WHO died

I agree with your use of the personal pronouns here showing that it is the PERSON that is the dead in Christ not merely decaying body parts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said
There are two resurrection: the just and the unjust. Lifeless bodies will not stand before Christ. The spirit will be reunited with the body. There is no soul sleep here. We all await the resurrection--every one of us.

That is true. When the spirit of mankind "that returns to God who gave it" at death - (in which case the PERSON has fallen ASLEEP in death) is returned to a body they are RESURRECTED and will stand before God NO LONGER "asleep" in death.

Further it is true that there are TWO resurrections and the FIRST one being the one we see in 1Thess 4 and stated to be the FIRST in Rev 20!

Those RAISED in that resurrection will no longer BE asleep - no longer BE the "DEAD in Christ" they will be alive once again. In new bodies - eternal bodies of 2Cor 5!

(BTW - there is no "body sharing" going on at the resurrection)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DHK Said
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Christ said: Lazarus sleeps.


That is not different than what you posted. It seems like you lied.

???

 

[Eric B]

I had mentioned it before, but Athenagoras, in 177AD, described death and sleep as "similar states", though acknowledging the people as alive in some sense.
And the theory of "psychopannichism" [sp?] did come up every now and then throughout Church history, so EGW did not make it up.
With all the dispute as to people being "bodies" or "spirits" or bodies or spirits dying or sleeping, it seems that saoul, body and spirit constitute the whole person, and this trichotomy is supposed to be one of the ways in which we are made in the 'image' of the triune God. It also would explain why the Resurrection is so vital to the person's eternal existence; "else, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have PERISHED".

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by mman:
Bob,

The rich man and Lazarus unquestionably demonstrates the consciousness of man (both the evil and good) in the intermediate state (Lk. 16:19ff). While some may dismiss this account as a mere parable, the force of that argument escapes me. A parable is either something that did happen or could happen.

Like the trees electing a leader?

Like the parable of "Forgiveness revoked" Matt 18?

There is NO definition for parable saying that "it must happen to be a parable". Making that kind of thing up - does not make it fact.

Now the "real" issue -- if you are going to argue for the living dead from Luke 16 - then go ahead and quote the chapter "in detail" -- or simply wait for me to do it. (Because you just "know" that I will)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eric B:
It also would explain why the Resurrection is so vital to the person's eternal existence; "else, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have PERISHED".

Hmm - might have to agree with Eric B

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DHK Said
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Christ said: Lazarus sleeps.


That is not different than what you posted. It seems like you lied.

??? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Intead of "wake IT" and speaking of "HIS BODY" Christ speaks directly of LAZARUS the PERSON saying that He goes to WAKE HIM!

Clearly.