Overcoming

[Hawaiiski]

The Rich Young Ruler asked Christ, 'What must I do to be saved'? Christ
said that he must give up his riches and follow Him. He refused because
money was his top priority, and he went away lost. If he had obeyed Christ, would
he would have been earning salvation. That's impossible! He would have
been putting Christ first and committing to obey Him. It is required of all
Christians that we make Christ our Lord as well as Savior. Christ warns us
to count the cost before becoming His disciple (Luke 14:25-33).

Very few Calvinists remember Christ's admonition to count the cost before becoming a Christian?

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:34 Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?


And please don't tell me that this is talking about deciples not Christians. Jesus said Come and follow me. That applies to us today the same as it applied to His deciples.

What does this have to do w/ the fact that I pointed out someone misquoting scripture in order to teach that a Christian can lose salvation? Also, what does this have to do w/ Calvinism? Apparently, you're assuming that I'm a Calvinist, which I'm not. In your future posts, the correct spelling is "disciple", not "deciple."

 

[Hawaiiski]

No.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.​

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

1 Corinthians 11
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

According to your definition of "overcoming" (i.e. overcoming the inclinations of the flesh), what happened to those who didn't overcome in Rev. 2:11; 3:5?

 

[HankD]

According to your definition of "overcoming" (i.e. overcoming the inclinations of the flesh), what happened to those who didn't overcome in Rev. 2:11; 3:5?

They will die the second death.

1 John 5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?​

"Overcoming" is a characteristic of those who have been born of God.​

Either you do it willing or...​

1 Corinthians 11
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

If one does not overcome and there is no chastening then...​

NKJ Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.​

HankD​

 

[Hawaiiski]

They will die the second death.

1 John 5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?​

"Overcoming" is a characteristic of those who have been born of God.​

Either you do it willing or...​

1 Corinthians 11
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

If one does not overcome and there is no chastening then...​

NKJ Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.​

HankD​

If a believer is chastened for not overcoming, does he still overcome, or does he experience the 2nd death?

 

[HankD]

If a believer is chastened for not overcoming, does he still overcome, or does he experience the 2nd death?

He will overcome one way or another, willingly or via the destruction of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 5

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Hawaiiski why do you seem so eager to have people suffer the second death?

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

My advice FWIW, is to leave it alone, God will take care of the phoney believers.

Matthew 13
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?​

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

...

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.




HankD​

 

[Hawaiiski]

Hawaiiski why do you seem so eager to have people suffer the second death?

I don't. I'm attempting to understand your position, which seems contradictory. In a nutshell, you stated that if God kills a believer for not overcoming the inclinations of his flesh, this causes him to overcome. I believe the "spirit" in the verse you quoted is referring not to man's spirit, but to the spirit of the church.

 

[HankD]

I don't. I'm attempting to understand your position, which seems contradictory. In a nutshell, you stated that if God kills a believer for not overcoming the inclinations of his flesh, this causes him to overcome. I believe the "spirit" in the verse you quoted is referring not to man's spirit, but to the spirit of the church.

I look at it this way Hawaiiski - We are incapable of our own justification/salvation, we all know that.

However, we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our sanctification.
We are chastised along the way when we get sluggish about it.

John 15

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.​

Note that there are two kinds of people in this passage, those that "abideth in me" (saved - to bring forth fruit) and those who "abideth not in me" (lost (presumably) - to be burned).​

If we reach the point where we do not bear the fruit of the Spirit then we are not serving God's purpose for us here on earth, which is to glorify God and He most likely will take us home.

Luke 13

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.​

Ater all it's all about Him and His Glory, His pleasure because He deserves it.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

Yet, we are not just possessions to Him, but His sons whom He prizes and cherishes.​

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us​

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.​

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace.
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.​

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.​

Yes, physical death is a means of "overcoming" the flesh because we leave it behind when we go to the Father.​

But that's not how He wants us to overcome.​

HankD​

 

[JustChristian]

I don't. I'm attempting to understand your position, which seems contradictory. In a nutshell, you stated that if God kills a believer for not overcoming the inclinations of his flesh, this causes him to overcome. I believe the "spirit" in the verse you quoted is referring not to man's spirit, but to the spirit of the church.

Hawaiiski why do you seem so eager to have people suffer the second death?

"I don't." This is incorrect grammar. In the future please check your posts for correct grammar.

 

[HankD]

Hawaiiski why do you seem so eager to have people suffer the second death?

"I don't." This is incorrect grammar. In the future please check your posts for correct grammar.

Oh no BaptistBeliever, please don't lay that burden on anyone here at the BB.

:laugh:

HankD

 

[JustChristian]

Oh no BaptistBeliever, please don't lay that burden on anyone here at the BB.

:laugh:

HankD

Actually, I was trying get the practice stopped. This was in response to this posted earlier.


In your future posts, the correct spelling is "disciple", not "deciple."

 

[HankD]

Oh OK.

HankD

 

[JustChristian]

What does this have to do w/ the fact that I pointed out someone misquoting scripture in order to teach that a Christian can lose salvation? Also, what does this have to do w/ Calvinism? Apparently, you're assuming that I'm a Calvinist, which I'm not. In your future posts, the correct spelling is "disciple", not "deciple."

Do Calvinists believe that a change in a person's life (being born again) and a change in their future lifestyle are an important part of following Christ (salvation). That's what is important about this.